I have officially lost the keys to my expensive and apparently very secure Master hand-cuff lock..I don't recall the actual name- each "cuff" has a lock on it with a chain inbetween. A handcuff. My bike is locked to itself and well, I'd love to ride my bike.
I'd prefer to not have to take a welder to it or a saw (if that would even work) so i'm wondering if anyone knows how I can pick the thing- or could I possibly drill the lock out?
Thanks for all advice...just looking for the easiest way to ride my bike :)
You aren't giving enough info. What kind of lock is it exactly? Post a picture that clearly shows the keyway of it somewhere and link to it. Most of these locks are pin tumbler locks in which case you can usually drill it or pick it easily. Post some more deatails and I'll tell you how to remove it if I know.
Just ignore Key. If he could actually read Key would know that the FAQ's for this group don't say that defeating information isn't given just that there is a debate about it, which obviously means that some people will give it and some people won't.. The FAQ's also give and link to defeating information in and of themselves. There is no specific alt.locksmithing policy etc on giving defeating information. Key is a graduate (or not) of one of the worst public school systems in the country and consequently can't read so he doesn't know that. Key is also logically impaired which is why he suggests bolt cutters to defeat the lock and simultaneously lectures about asking for defeating instructions.
You say the bike is locked to itself, this suggests to me that you can transport the bike to a locksmith. This would spare the expense of needing a service call. The locksmith may be able to fit a new set of keys for you. If he can't do this he can probably remove the lock and supply you with a new one.
Who? Key? Key has posted lots of useful information but IMHO he also takes secrecy to silly extremes (read the Lagard 3330 thread for an example) How to change a combo or how to determine an unknown combo on a safe with the door open isn't any kind of secret. You have to use some common sense with this stuff. Key will start in that you don't know it's the poster's safe, obviously implying that you shouldn't give them info they can get with a phone call from the lock manufacturer, but then point out to this other guy to use boltcutters obviously to cut the lock off. It's actually pretty funny.
The guy is right on the FAQ's too. There is nothing in there I would use to argue that asking how to defeat a lock is not appropriate for this group, as opposed to say posting binaries or html to this group which the FAQ's clearly say shouldn't be done. He also feels the need to respond to every spam post that comes along which I know has gotten him in a lot of killfiles.
actually it could need be a secret. I was only responding about the "determine an unknown combo on a safe with the door open" part. senario; someone works at a place that leaves their safe door locked open (for convinious) and also un-guarded during the day. (this does happen) this person then comes here and wants to know how to "determine an unknown combo on a safe with the door open" then they go and determine the combonation of the safe so they can return after hours to open the safe. (its really not that far-fetched)
then let them get the information from the lock manufacturer. they are not getting it from me because of the senario above.
not all all funny. my opening cuffs comment is a totally different thing from my safe comment. I wouldn't think that anyone in custody would have access to bolt-cutters :-)
not everything can be solved with a FAQ. all one would have to do is be around this group for a while and they would know that the professional locksmiths on this group won't give defeating instructions. the professional locksmiths here also understands the logic behind having the ethics NOT to give defeating instructions. there will probably never an agreement on this subject.
I don't respond to "every spam post". also, I do more than just respond to some of the spam. I also don't care whos kill-file I am in. its sure not my loss...
I am a little familiar with this lock. For those who have never looked at one, it looks like huge handcuffs with a piece of motorcycle chain in the middle. The lock is a tubular lock similar to an ACE. The diameter of the key is very different and I think it has 10 tumblers. Don't remember for sure. I would never say that it is unpickable, but normal picks will not fit. The normal locksmith, even with tubular capabilities, has no way to duplicate or make a key for this lock. It is a fairly expensive lock, around $60-75, and I can understand why a person would not want to damage it. At this point in time, it is probably time to bite the bullet and cut it off.
I personally don't know what a "handcuff" lock, other than that used on actual handcuffs, is. If it's a pin tumbler lock DAGS on impressioning, get some key blanks and with a little luck you will not only wind up with an open lock but also a working key to it. master locks in general impression pretty well. Here's a basic article tp get you started:
Wow, all those replies and only Dennis has a clue.
The Master CUFF lock for bikes has the appearance of handcuffs that are oversized. They undergo testing for pulling, cutting and wedging under
15,000 pounds of force and never fail. The lock, while a tubular type that uses a standard diameter key similar to the 1137 from Ilco or the Original K8186, has nine tumblers at 36 degree increments. That means standard key machines and standard tubular picks will not work. The key machine needs to be able to duplicate cuts at 36 degree increments and so far the only one that can do that effectively is the Silca Crown. Even if there were tubular picks available with nine feelers they would not work because the center post of the lock does not turn and therefore torque cannot be applied. The lock also contains 3 hardened dead pins and the hole saw attack will result in the lock eating the saw.
The recommended solution to a lockout is an angle grinder. Cut as near the cylinder as possible so the arm can be pivoted out of the way, the lock removed and then thrown away. Keys by code are not available. This lock is made with laminated steel plates that are hardened. There is also a bigger cast nickel-steel version for motorcycles that is typically tested with 30,000 pounds of force, it doesn't fail either. Both locks are available through locksmiths and bicycle shops that keep up-to-date. They are the best and they are expensive.
It isn't a secret, and it never has been a secret. Those basic to one degree or another instructions have widley available to end users for years in case someone sets an unknown combo.
Then they need a lock with a locking rear cover because anybody with an IQ over room temp can take out two screws and line up the gates. It isn't up to me to protect someone that careless from themself.
(this does happen)
Then this guy was a real Machiavelli type because that isn't what he asked.
In which case they have a locked front door and unless the business owner just enjoys getting robbed an alarm to deal with.
It doesn't matter. The information is already as public as it can be. Call any safe lock manufacturer and tell them you set a combo and now don't know what it is and they will walk you through it. It's almost as basic as the dialing procedure. Not to mention that when the guy gets caught with the cover off he's going to have some explaining to do. Quicker and less obvious to take out the bolts that hold it to the floor.
No, you let them get the information from the manufacturer I'll use common sense about what really is and isn't sensitive information and tell them what I'm OK with telling them because I realize this particular info is no big deal.
they are not getting it from me because of the senario
The senario above is a user problem that can be solved by a. not being lazy or if one insists on being lazy b. getting a lock with a locking cover, don't be surprised though when Joe Clerk takes the bolts out and replaces them with bolt heads crazy glued to the safe floor and comes back and gets the whole safe, which in reality is what usually happens, not the crazy glue part but stealing the whole poorly secured safe. Probably happens 10 times for every time a safe is actually cracked during a burglary.
The information needed to do what you describe is so widely diseminated you may as well refuse to tell them how to dial the thing and think that will stop them from opening it. I mean lets face it if they find the combo written down somewhere and don't have a clue how to dial it they will get nowhere fast. You tell them how to dial the combo you just helped them 'crack' the safe. ANY information about any lock can be used to crack it. Telling someone how a pin tumbler lock works provides a wealth of information on how to beat it. Does that mean you just pretend it's a secret? Everything he needs to do what you describe is right here:
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Never saw it before. Didn't know the page existed. Time to find it: About
15 seconds. Some of it is borderline not technicaly accurate and it ain't gonna put lockmasters out of business but the diagram alone is enough to tell him he can determine a combo with the back cover off.
There are few secrets any more and there is no sense pretending things that have never been kept secret are among them.
No it isn't. You basicly told him he could defeat the lock with bolt cutters. The information you gave him in fact isn't any good for anything but defeating the lock. To use your own argument you don't know it's his lock. He could be the worlds stupidist bike thief and has never heard of bolt cutters. You just introduced him to a wonderfull new burglary tool. I can see him now typing into google with no small measure of anticipation "bolt cutters", "wow those look cool, I can really boost some serious shit with these..". The information I gave on the other hand can be used by an end user to determine a lost combo, rather than just to defeat the lock.
The post referred to a master bike lock of some sort. The term "handcuff" was the posters for lack of a better word on his part. I don't know exactly what he is talking about but it's some kind of bike lock. As far as real handcuffs no bolt cutters required. There was a real and fairly widely publicized case of two LEO's being killed when the suspect they thought they had secured used a handcuff key he carried at all times to undo the cuffs.
You cited them, not me. You Frequently cite them and the fact is they don't back up your position against giving defeating information. They actually give some defeating information, which logicly tends to undermine your position.
Not to beat a dead horse but you give defeating instructions everytime you say to use bolt cutters. You are making a judgement call that so many people know about bolt cutters it doesn't make any difference and a lot of the infomation you complain about being given is not really much more obscure.
What most security professionals and people in general understand is the balance between potential for misuse of information and that information's usefullness for legitimate purposes. Anything can be abused including most information.
OK, maybe not every spam post but you respond to a good many of them. I don't see most of them until you respond because my server deletes them but it doesn't delete your response.
Sending an abuse report doesn't require a response. If you want to respond to them knock yourself out but it's basicly pointless. By the time your abuse report even gets read the spammer has moved to a new open relay or compromised account. The NNTP servers get better and better at filtering or removing them in short order so most of us hardly even see the spam making it a non-issue. What doesn't get filtered the cancel bots frequently get. Hell I hardly ever even get spam email anymore. ISP based filtering must really put a dent in their income.
noted. I was wrong about using the boltcutters. I thought he was talking about regular hand-cuffs. as far as the rest, its one of those things that we will probably never agree.
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