Safe - very safe, apparently

Safe lockouts are a bitch. Depending on exactly what state he left that new lock in, it is possible that drilling may be necessary... but a qualified safe tech may be able to persuade it to open without having to drill, and if not will be able to drill with minimal damage and repair it cleanly and security.

The combination really should not have been 20-40-60 in any case; common practice is to avoid "obvious" numbers of that sort.

Tell him that given his mistakes, you really want him to pay to have someone more experienced deal with it. Threaten him with small-claims if that's what it takes.

Question: Exactly what happens when the combo is dialed? When you dial it past 0 does it come to a stop (and if so, on what number?), or does it just continue turning. If the latter, the combo is probably wrong somehow; if the former, it may just be that the boltwork is getting jammed and needs a bit of persuading.

Another thing to try: dialing the combo backward (ie, if it's officially left-right-left then right past zero to open, try right-left-right, left to zero, then right to open). I've seen folks do that once or twice.

While trying other combos, I'd suggest you also try 60-40-20 and two other "never use this one on real safes" combinations which are sometimes used when a safe is being taken out of service: 25-50-25, and "four times left to 50, right to open".

That's what he said it was, but the downloadable PDF from the S&G website said that the default combination was 20-60-40. I tried both several times.

I'm considering that.

It spins freely and continuously both ways with no restrictions. I can feel the various gears (or whatever they are called) grabbing and releasing inside of the lock. In other words, the lock appears to be working fine.

I will give these a try right away. Thanks for the suggestions!

Well, no joy on any of those numbers. *sigh*

Thanks a million for the reply, Joe! I sincerely appreciate your assistance and any further information that you or anyone else may be able to provide.

A useful reminder to all. When changing combinations or doing other things to a safe door, try the combination and locking mechanism at least THREE times (some people say SIX times) with the door open before locking it shut. I would place a block of wood or similar to stop the door being closed as a further reminder.

I once experienced a lockout, but felt confident that I was not responsible as I had tried the combination three times and the safe subsequently opened on several occasions after that. It was a maladjusted lock and the company's expert soon got it open by tapping the door with a hammer to coax the fence into the gate (phew!).

There is also a danger that if you twirl the dial wrongly while setting the numbers, you can get it open with the same operation, but it will be locked against someone trying to open it according to instructions.

Further to this, I have a couple of further questions. I would like some ammunition when this locksmith (the incompetent fool that he appears to be) returns, if he returns. It won't shock me if he just disappears because I'm pretty sure that he knows that I'm not paying him penny one until and unless my safe is in good working order.

When I told him that I wasn't going to allow him to drill my safe, his reply was "But I have money invested in this! Two trips to your premises, labour and the lock!" I said that's not my fault.

With that out of the way:

1. Is is possible to drill and repair my safe without compromising the security? I don't give a rat's rear what it looks like -- it's not a thing of beauty now anyway. He said that he wants to drill a quarter-inch hole through the door beside the combination dial and then punch out the pin(?) behind it to get the door open. It seems to me that it would be physically impossible to drill the door in that way and then re-seal it so it would be just as secure as it is now; in other words, you couldn't un-drill it afterward. Could it really be fixed up "good-as-new" again? If so, what would be required to do that?
2. The safe is 100% empty right now, so I don't really need to open it again anyway, I guess. Having said that, if he can't open it without damage, what should I ask for in compensation? I'm thinking that I should demand that he provide me with a comparable steel safe, or with cash to cover the value of what he has buggered up, i.e. what was a perfectly good steel safe. What's one of those things worth? It's 39 inches tall, and 28 inches square outside, and as I recall it's about 15 inches across inside dimension. I don't know what it weighs (other than "one helluva lot"). How much should I tell him I want, or what should I insist that he do?
3. What is a good "modern" safe that's similar to this old black beast that I have now? My objective is to have something theft-proof; this old beast seemed the real deal because it is so heavy and huge that nobody could ever carry it off, plus I already had it. I think it was brought in when this building was built back in the 1940's, and it was probably old then because the name that's painted on the door isn't the name of the guy who built this building originally.
4. Is there anything else that I should know about this? Frankly, safes haven't been a particular field of interest for me, up until the past couple of days.

it IS a doable thing, and depending on the paint/finish, you would NEVER know, and the security would be IF DONE RIGHT, better..

there is 'theft proof', due to size (and bolting down).. FIRE proof.. (NOT burglary proof), and burglary resistant..

lets go stupid a second..(cover all grounds)

4 times EITHER direction, stop on 50.. then OPPOSITE direction.. and as you get to 50, you 'should feel' a slight bump.. keep turning, and you should get 3 bumps-each at 50 ..if one is way out of kilter, there is a problem with a wheel, maybe and it MIGHT BE able to be dialed open.. (if the person CAN do such, AND its verified)

#2.. IF this is the 6730 lock.. left 4 times to 20.. right, stopping when 40 comes up the THIRD time.. (not necessarily 3 turns) LEFT, to 60 coming up the SECOND time.. (not 2 turns)

and then RIGHT, you WILL pass 0, and 'should stop' about 85.. if it keeps going, then there is a problem. you 'might try' dialing up or down 2 numbers at MOST.. and this assumes that the dial ring IS loose..

if that absolutely fails, then there are 2 marks on the dial..

12 oclock.. and about 10:30..

dial the same sequence AS ABOVE, but use the LEFT MARK..

try that..

and if THAT works , KEEP THE DOOR OPEN.. its far easier to fix OPEN, than locked..

--Shiva--

they changed the normal set at number? cute.. hadnt been to their web site in a while.. last I had was 4x left and stop on 1 number, then right to open

--Shiva--

Then make the customer try the combination at least twice, and preferably three times, to make sure they understand the dialing sequence and agree that you set the right combo.

Maybe it's off buy just a little bit. Try this...

Dial the combination to

L 4 X to 20 R 3 X to 40 L 2 X to 60 Right to 8 and stop

Now, at 8, oscillate the dial back and forth _rapidly_ about a dozen or so times but only between 5 and 10

Then very slowly turn right to about 95 and see if the dial stops.

Or....

Maybe he had a brain fart and changed the combination using the opening index (the one at 12:00) instead of the change index (the one to the left) In that case the actual opening numbers would be off

8 1/2

Try this...

L 4 X to 11 1/2 R 3 X to 31 1/2 L 2 X to 50 1/2 R to stop (around 95)

If that fails...

Tell him that "everybody is entitled to one mistake" (even I make mistakes). Tell him you will give him "ONE chance to drill it". If he doesn't get it open on the first hole (which there's no reason why he shouldn't), he calls someone who specializes in safes and he pays him to open and repair. Otherwise, you will call someone of _your_ choosing, pay him your self, then bill him for the opening.

Good luck.

Very good thought.

Also strikes me as reasonable.

I think you've found the problem.

Dialing it according to your instructions, I get the bump at 46, 41.5 and

37.5 going one way, and at 55, 58.5 and 62 going the other way.

So.... what now?

It's not the drilling that worries me so much as the repair afterward (which I will of course not pay him for).

What, exactly, must he do to fix it? He mentioned something about re-finishing it using autobody filler(!) and that was the point where my hair stood on end.

I am extremely hesitant to allow him to touch my safe with a drill, after this episode. If I do allow him to drill it once, as above, then how can I be sure that he fixes it properly afterward? What should I be seeing, as it were?

lets say you got a hole in your antique car body.. you take it to the 'body shop', and they weld the hole up, but they cannot get it absolutely 'perfect' but 'close'.. body filler, PROPERLY applied AFTER the hole is welded, is ok.. then primer and repaint..

AFTER its fixed? NOTHING.. assuming he does a good job of fixing the hole..

--Shiva--

find SOMEONE close.. tell him the story, and it may be you have 'a loose wheel or stuck fly..if you do not trust your current person..

if its a stuck fly, it 'might be' able to be overcome, without drilling a hole. then if you do get it open, get it PROPERLY adjusted and tested BEFORE the door is shut..

if you had have said, 50, 51, 49, or such then its ok, IMO.. BOTH ways.. but with variations between turning directions that much, suggests a little problem.. assuming you are turning right..

BTW.. DO NOT do this by giving the wheel a FLIP/spin.. you turn at a reasonable/STEADY pace..

somewhere I got a booklet that S&G produced to deal with that very situation.. it takes TIME..

drilling is a last, but doable, resort.. nothing to FEAR..

--Shiva--

Indeed, but that still doesn't answer my question. What constitutes a "good job"? Welding a plate (made of ?) onto the back? Filling the hole with (item X)? Glue of some kind?

Something else?

You see, I'm thinking that after this, and knowing that I'm not paying him for his time working on this drilling part (assuming that I allow him to proceed with it), he could just fill the hole with chewing gum, slap on a quick coat of black paint and say, "There you go, I'm outta here."

IF its a burglary grade safe, the hole would be welded with a 'drill resistant 'plug.. and not saying more on an open forum..

there is available, to arc welders, a rod used to build up plow faces.. and I would not hesitate to use that in a NON burglary rated safe, its a PITA to drill, which is what you want..

the thing is, whats the walls NOW? you dont know, and I dont know.. it could be 1/8" steel type material, or maybe somewhere in there is a piece of cast iron, plus some 'insulation/cement looking stuff.. I want it matched, pretty close. with 'proper' repairs FOR the material in question.. that would be a 'good' repair --Shiva--

You have a new lock, and that cost this locksmith time and money to install... Have you paid the man his money for that original work yet ??? You are entitled not to have to pay for any additional work required because of any defect in materials or craftmanship... Please explain to me under what law it is you think covers you from not having to pay for any of the work at all ???

Well, yeah, once you weld around the edges of the hole building up metal to seal it shut you need to cover the weld with something...

Then don't let him... Pay him his orginal bill for the installation of the new combination lock and note inform him of your intentiuons to a qualified safe technician to repair his mistake at his expense...

You do have to pay him for his original work... I hope that you understand that, otherwise you could find yourself on the wrong side of the law and defending against a lawsuit...

Evan, ~~formerly a maintenance man, now a college student

If you hire an auto mechanic to repair your car, and he returns it with the engine not functioning due to his own mistakes, the fact that he put in a bunch of parts and time does not justify his getting paid. If the failure can be shown to have been due to something that was NOT under his control, that's a different matter.

The locksmith has not completed the task for which he was paid, that being to get the safe back into proper operation. I do think that he's under obligation to do so, or to ensure that it is done. As a public relations matter, he might want to bite the bullet and accept the latter.

Basically, it's a question of whether this constitutes malpractice. That concept _is_ applicable to fields other than medicine, and is one major reason businesses should consider carrying insurance.

Well then it's on him. He owes you the cost of getting it open minus the value of the lock and installation assuming the lock is any good and the installation was otherwise correct. Go to small claims court. It will help if you have a bill showing what he did and a bill from whoever opens it. If your state is a "one party state" record a conversation with him, preferably without his knowlege, establishing what happened then you have him when it's time to go to court. This is especially effective in small claims court, where typically no discovery takes place, if the person blatantly lies under oath. You can then completely destroy their credibility with the tape. Make sure your state is one of the majority that allow recording of conversations by only one party to the conversation versus a state where all parties have to be informed.