Magnetic Susceptibility of Dental Amalgams

On Sun, 1 Feb 2004 11:39:45 +0100, snipped-for-privacy@thekraal.com (madiba) wrote:


This the question Mr. Keith Walsh has to answer...
Regards,
Aribert Deckers
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This is the purpose of composite filling material ~ its a great insulator.
Question for our electrical buddies .......... There is a material that is widely used in dentistry and also used for insulating transatlantic cables ....... what is that material?
Joel

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Joel M. Eichen, .
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is it that stuff they put in as filler after a root canal??
(madiba) wrote:

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Absolutely correct! Its gutta percha, the orange material that comes in various sizes to correspond with the bore of the root canal space.
It is also used in huge quantities as transatlantic cable insulation. It comes from Indonesia.
Joel

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Joel M. Eichen, .
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Do you believe Timex should be legally obligated to inform people that no controlled studies have been published demonstrating that these potentials are not able to dissipate electrical energy through the nerves in people's heads? And what about the poor souls that carry a pocket watch? Think of the potential consequences!
carabelli
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And what about the temp gradient when you walk from under a tree into the sunshine. I fear an explosion! :)
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Give up while you're ahead carabelli, you'll never beat Joel at idiotic comparisons.. how can you compare a battery in a watch on a wrist (skin is a good insulator btw which is why we need EKG paste) to an amalgam on the dental pulp which is hot-wired to the brain via cranial nerves..?
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madiba

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Madiba, are you trying to break into the Idiotic Comparison Club?
Joel
On Sun, 1 Feb 2004 10:19:07 +0100, snipped-for-privacy@thekraal.com (madiba) wrote:

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Joel M. Eichen, .
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You need to post some hard numbers, not some "philosphy of science" stuff about ubiquity of temperature gradient. By "figure out" I thought I was clear in suggesting that you put the equations down on paper and determine the value of mu based on an amalgam model. This shouldn't be hard to derive at all. I believe you will find based on a properly calculated mu that the dT will be in the hundreds if not thousands in order to provide even 1 mV of change in potential.
You continue to post generalizations and scattered quotations from all over the place. Please prove your point by doing at least a little simple math.
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wrote:

349 millivolts plus or minus one millivolt .......

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I stand corrected. Ouch!!! Also did anyone notice in the original paper that the 350 mV was a worst case peak and that the mean was around 17 mV or so? These voltage levels might be more due to the grounding (or lack thereof) in the lab equipment than to an actual potential across the blob of amalgam.
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wrote:

I suspect that many people involved in this "debate" won't have even bothered to read the original paper.
The mean of 17mV for the measured amalgam potentials was quoted alongside the standard deviation for the same data of plus or minus 111mV.
This indicates that significant numbers of the measured potentials were large (compared with 17mV) and positive, whilst significant numbers of others were large and negative.
The mean value of 17mV is therefore of limited use in understanding the nature of these potentials.
I can illustrate this point with two examples of the limited usefulness of arithmetic means.
Firstly, if I report that I there is a group of five males with a mean age of 25 going to a football game, then you might get the wrong impression about the nature of this group if you don't know that their individual ages are actually 7, 9, 13, 36 and 60.
More relevantly, if I measure an electrical potential of minus 150mV in one of a person's two amalgam fillings, and another electrical potential of plus 150mV in the other, then I shouldn't expect to be able to convince anyone other than an idiot that because the arithmetic mean of the two potentials is zero then it can be declared that neither exists.
I'm not aware of any definitive explanation as to why some amalgams appear to indicate negative potentials whilst others appear to indicate positive ones when measured under comparable conditions.
However, in a simple theoretical model it might be regarded as logical to suggest that if the surface of one amalgam indicating a positive potential were to be connected via a conductive path to the surface of another amalgam indicating a negative potential, then the potentials might combine additively in the same way that ordinary batteries do when connected in series, possibly producing an even greater combined potential.
This might then explain the situation whereby individuals have reported excruciating pain when biting on a piece of metallic foil in the mouth, especially if the nerves behind the teeth are able to complete an "electrical circuit" through which the electrical potentials involved may be dissipated.
The resting potentials of human neurological cells have been measured at 70mV.
And it has been demonstrated experimentally that amalgam dental fillings generate electrical potentials with magnitudes of up to 350mV. See:
http://book.boot.users.btopenworld.com/dutch.htm
Amalgam fillings are placed in children's teeth.
I believe that experimental investigations should therefore have been carried out in order to determine whether or not the electrical potentials generated by amalgam fillings are able to dissipate electrical energy through the nerves in people's heads (perhaps at lower levels and on a continual basis without any tin-foil being present).
Would you not agree?
Keith P Walsh
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But then you are saying that the actual measurement conducted was of limited use and probably invalid. The experimenters should have used a statistically large sample which would provide more confidence in the end results, or they should have employed a statistical model that better represents the underlying variability.
The fact that some amalgams provide oppositely charged potentials makes me even further suspicious of the methodologies employed and conclusions arrived at during the experiment in question. It sounds more to me like their measurements are dominated by noise.
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wrote:

Well they did quote a standard deviation for the data of plus or minus 111mv, indicating that significant numbers of the amalgam potentials measured were large (as compared with 17mV) and positive, whilst significant numbers of others were large and negative.

"Noise"?
By "noise" do you mean electromagnetic interference?
And, if so, would you be able to suggest a means of demonstrating experimentally whether or not the measuring instruments that these researchers used might have been more sensitive to this type of "noise" than the metal amalgam dental fillings which they were taking the measurements from?
Keith P Walsh
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It sounds like their data do not conform well to a gaussian distribution. How many samples did they obtain? And measuring both positive and negative potentials is a big warning sign of corrupted data for me.

It could be due to EM interference, poor grounding, uncalibrated equipment, moisture in the air, or equipment pushed beyond its accuracy/precision ratings. It could also be due to inconsistencies in experimental procedure.
To demonstrate, take a handheld digital multimeter (such as those from flukemeter.com), set it to VDC, and wave the two prongs around, touch them to separate fingers, etc. You will see voltage variations all over the map. A robust measurement of the potential across a small object such as an amalgam at millivolt accuracies will require careful and systematic experimental procedures as well as a full accounting of potential sources of error.
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Gaussian V. Black?
wrote:

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Joel M. Eichen, .
Philadelphia PA
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Really???
a digital watch only requires 1.5V to work and with your crazy idea that there is a temperture gradient all the time, why do we still need a battery in a digital watch???
As far as the scientist you quoted I have no Idea who they are but you mentioned an amalgamation of metals dipped in mercury, that is different that dental amalgam and how it is being used in the mouth vs some experiment we know nothing about.

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This is why I wear my digital watch inside my armpit. When it slows down I take it out and it catches up in time.
Joel

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Joel M. Eichen, .
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To convert the temp. gradient to electricity.. Duh.
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madiba

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I don't remember placing batteries next to my amalgam restorations in dental school.
I would think one would need a steam engine and generator for this conversion
snipped-for-privacy@thekraal.com (madiba) wrote in message wrote:

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