A very disturbing conversation

Friday on a flight from Baltimore to Atlanta I sat next to a couple of Marines on their way home for 2 weeks of mid-rotation R&R. They were pumped about going home but they were NOT happy campers. They freely talked about the situation in Iraq for the whole flight.

They are in the 1st Battalion, 2nd Marines "supporting" one of the better Iraqi National Guard units about 30 miles south of Baghdad. According to these guys the Iraqi Guard is close to useless. They only do what the marines tell them to do and do that only sometimes. Recently a police barracks was attacked and they staged in camp for more than an hour waiting for permission from higher up to respond. By the time they got to the barracks it was all over.

They are under strict orders not to fire unless they have definitely identified the enemy and simply carrying a weapon does not qualify. A target has to be witnessed firing at coalition troupes. In the 6 months they have been in Iraq they have had 50 roadside bomb attacks on at their convoys and defused another 11. Mortar attacks are a daily occurrence. They think that the administration is more concerned about Iraqi lives than their own.

The really disturbing part is that they believe that they were lied to about the reasons for being there and that we will have to be there forever to keep the lid on.

Reply to
Glenn Ashmore
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ARVN.

Jim

Reply to
jim rozen

My first thought as well. What can we do for these guys, and others like them, "enlightened" as we are by history that others seem to have let slip?

Fred awake nights thinking aout kids of friends

Reply to
Fred R

Sorry to sound dumb, but what is ARVN?

Reply to
Rileyesi

"Rileyesi" wrote

Sorry to sound dumber, but what does this have to do with metalworking?

Steve

Reply to
SteveB

You are correct, the original thread should have been labeled OT.

Jim

Reply to
jim rozen

Is there something wrong with that?

Mark Rand RTFM

Reply to
Mark Rand

All work and no play makes Jack a dull boy.

Orrin

Reply to
Orrin Iseminger

They carried rifles "never fired, only dropped once."

Reply to
Tony

Yeah. And you had to check under the troop seats of any helicopter you were a crew member on after inserting them into a zone. They had a little trick they pulled sometimes that involved a frag with the pin removed and the spoon still on. Pushed it inside an empty C ration can and laid it in the floor under the troop seats with the open end of the can towards the direction of flight. When the ship lifted off and the tail rose, the vibration shook the frag out of the can. Spoon flies off. Count to five. Dead crewmen everywhere.

Garrett Fulton

Reply to
Garrett Fulton

I'm not sure if you've been following the entire thread, but the original analogy was between the US-installed iraq guard and ARVN.

The implication of your above statement is not lost on me at all.

Jim

Reply to
jim rozen

Because they can. The US is fighting an insurgent war that can not be won, the way it's being done now.

Jim

Reply to
jim rozen

On 11 Oct 2004 04:20:43 GMT, snipped-for-privacy@aol.com.gov (Rileyesi) vaguely proposed a theory ......and in reply I say!:

remove ns from my header address to reply via email

Not dumb. I did not know either.But it _was_ easy to look up. However AFAICS nobody else has replied.

Army of the Republic of Vietnam.

***************************************************** Have you noticed that people always run from what they _need_ toward what they want?????
Reply to
Old Nick

And then you - we if you like, I'm Australian - lost the war. Don't overlook the outcome. So far Iraq isn't shaping up well for you. You've won the military side of it but 12 months later - what? You're losing the 'peace'.

I'm glad the world (and Iraq) is rid of Hussein so don't go off political with a red herring accusing me of being anti-war or whatever. Fact is, the place is a shambles and it's not improving. Where's the strategy for winning the peace? If (and in my mind it's still an if) the majority of the urban population, or even a substantial minority, is opposed and prepared to use arms, you're not gonna win. Every house you destroy, every 'collateral damage' person you injure adds support to your opposition. It's shaping up to be a tarbaby if it's not already.

My betting is you'll do another Vietnam. Patch things up long enough to get out and save a little face, then watch your puppets tumble down afterwards. Meanwhile Iran develops nukes, North Korea develops nukes, and you pay it only passing attention. Neither place believes you'll invade them now so why not? Once they've got nukes, they *know* you won't invade.

Fortunately I live in the Southern Hemisphere.

PDW

Reply to
Peter Wiley

That is exactly what we are doing. We followed up one of the most brilliant military campaigns in history with a spectacularly inept performance which will cost us much of what we could have gained.

Actually if you look beyond the security situation, it is improving. Infrastructure is being rebuilt and expanded, schools -- real schools not Islamist training camps -- are open all over the country, the public health situation has improved tremendously over what it was under Saddam.

But of course the majority, or even a substantial minority, of the Iraqis aren't opposed to our removing Hussein. Don't be misled by what you see on the news. The reports concentrate on the bombings and the attacks on police stations. Those aren't the whole story by a long shot. Most Iraqis appreciate the gains we have brought them -- even if they're not always too thrilled with us.

The short form is that we have screwed the pooch big time. Not by fighting the war, not by deposing Hussein, but by the way we have handled the situation since then. It remains to be seen whether we can retrieve the situation or whether we'll do what the British did after World War I when they occupied the country they had just created for about two years, then declared victory and went home.

Every house you destroy, every 'collateral damage' person

You may be right. Even if Bush wins the election, it will take some serious stones to do what is necessary to put things really right.

However don't make too much of the Vietnam parallel. It will only stretch so far. (Consider the monthly casualty figures out of Iraq and Vietnam. Consider the reasons for the difference.) Iraq is a much easier proposition than Vietnam ever was.

Meanwhile Iran develops nukes, North Korea develops nukes,

Fortunately we don't have to invade either place. Given the political will, we could handle both situations without putting any of our troops on the ground. In fact sooner or later we will develop the political will to handle North Korea and Iran -- with or without troops on the ground. The only question is how many nuclear explosions is it going to take to develop that will? The answer is somewhere between 0 (if we're smart) and a dozen or so (if we're really, really dumb.)

Where is it now springtime and the selection of hardwoods is both beautiful and quite different from what we have here.

--RC (who wonders how he let himself get dragged into this)

If I weren't interested in gardening and Ireland, I'd automatically killfile any messages mentioning 'bush' or 'Kerry'

Reply to
rcook5

And in a very long while it will be as good as when we got there in the first place - and then all those troops can come home again.

Jim

Reply to
jim rozen

Or more correctly, its getting more complex. More organized & entrenched guerillas, more stuff built by US dollars, more of the built stuff getting blown up, countryside more lethal than ever, gov't that sort of provides cover for the US, near complete uselessness of the Iraqi army, and the ever more obvious need for about 3* the number of US troops in there if want to actually make practice resemble PR.

I'm not a warmonger, but I'm apalled that the US military has repeatedly been forced to let so many insurgents just go home and actually has No Go zones in a 3rd world country. The most powerful military in the world has been handcuffed by its own leadership who is unable and unwilling to admit its lack of planning or face the consequences.

The question is, are we willing to be the butchers we must become if the country is really to be subdued?

Gregm

Reply to
Greg Menke

translation: haliburton

Indeed, mostly oil infrastructure. Pipelines, pumping stations.

I was unaware this was the situation, regarding the no-go zones.

Vietnam - yet another parallel.

Yes. Either do it right or get out. I don't think 'doing it right' is a political option now - nor will it ever be. So that leaves one other choice....

Jim

Reply to
jim rozen

Similar things were happening in Chechnya.

Various "reconstruction" projects were "financed", "built", etc, then, inexplicably, insurgents "destroyed" them such that it was impossible to figure out just how much money was spent. Guess where the money went.

i
Reply to
Ignoramus32597

On Thu, 14 Oct 2004 15:50:38 GMT, Gunner calmly ranted:

Oh, good. I'm glad that wasn't just an int'l photo op. Whew!

Add "republican" to that list of pols, but they're doing it by publishing new money, not directly taxing us. Neither, IMNSHO, is good for us as a people.

- Don't be a possum on the Information Superhighway of life. ----

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Reply to
Larry Jaques

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