hi 308 ammo prices

I have used both lapping bullets and the older lapping compound you apply yourself but only in bores that needed help. If you shoot a couple rounds and the barrel gets fouled with copper/lead then lapping will help. The ones who push the break-in, clean every round and lap the $5,000.00 barrel they have, are the B/R crowd.

I have never found a rifle that shot better with a clean bore. BUT there may be one out there. Then it comes down to how you store your guns. I shoot mine then run a quick patch or two down it just to knock the heavy crud out. Then some oil and into the rack. The only ones that get a full cleaning are the BP and corrosive ammo ones.

I look more at functioning. I like a rifle that can drop every round into a 1-2" circle at 150-200 yards. But it better go BANG every time I pull the trigger. If not it goes down the road.

It is, BUT, it still beats throwing the bullets by hand!!!

I will say that my Mini likes the Wolf I have played with.

Gunner Asch wrote in news: snipped-for-privacy@4ax.com:

This gets tricky. The problem is that powder fouling seizes up over time. If you are shooting with a hot fouled barrel, it may not shoot to the same point once the barrel has been left a few days & the fouling has hardened. I usually clean my match rifles for storage immediately after the last Spring league match, and they clean up pretty easy. A few years ago, I got busy & had to let my 308 sit for a week or so. It was nearly impossible to get my usual tight patch down the bore, and even after my standard cleaning routine, I could feel a lot of drag on the patch. I finally had to haul out JB Bore Paste (a mild abrasive cleaner) and give it a good scrubbing to get all of the fossilized fouling out.

Bottom line: a fouled bore that has sat for a few days probably will not shoot identically to what it was doing at the range when you last fired it warm. The difference may not matter when you are talking accuracy of MOBG (minute of bad guy), but it will be different.

I think the only way to make sure of pinpoint precision with the first shot is to use Bob's procedure for making sure you've got your sights set for a single shot out of a cold clean barrel. Then you are starting with a known quantity.

I shoot 200 yard offhand (standing) matches, and I've never noticed a difference between my first shots from a clean barrel & later ones that couldn't easily be attributed to me. If I do my part, I can still keep my shots inside the 10 ring (7" dia), clean or fouled. I still try hard not to fire in a match starting with a clean barrel.

As best I can tell, firing from a fouled barrel that has sat for several days is certainly no worse than firing from a cold clean barrel, _with my rifle_. Every bore is different. My rifles all have Krieger stainless barrels, which are lapped & don't foul very much.

Doug White

Let the Record show that "Buerste" on or about Wed,

11 Nov 2009 05:21:48 -0500 did write/type or cause to appear in rec.crafts.metalworking the following:

Maybe so, probably so. So? Yes, life is too short to shoot crappy ammo. But life is too precious to have no ammo because you are waiting for "the good stuff". I knew a General of Tanks, his attitude was that the 'better is the enemy of the good'. In his command, he needed tanks - now. Good ones. Not having the number of tanks he needed now, because better ones would be available in a couple years, meant he could not do his job, now. Same goes for ammo. Better a load out of crappy ammo, even steel cased Wolf, beats not having any.

Not picking on you. There is a lot of stuff I'd rather have, but can't afford, so I make do, or do without. I'd like a rifle like my friends: tack driver at 200 yards plus (that I know). Cheap at only three grand (his replacement would be six grand). Some other time, when my rich uncle gets out of the poor house.

The other option, keep an eye out. Carry cash, so when you ask "How much?" it means "How much do I count out?" not "How much do I need to go get?" I suspect the days of "cheap" ammo are gone for quite a while. What I fear is these being looked back on as "the good old days, when ammo was cheap." I should also add in, that part of the "cheap" ammo cost, is a lack of social disruption. I'd rather ammo be "expensive" because it costs a lot of cash, than have ammo become "expensive" because there are no stores or commerce. Or to become "cheap" because of civil unrest.

tschus pyotr

- pyotr filipivich We will drink no whiskey before its nine. It's eight fifty eight. Close enough!

On Wed, 11 Nov 2009 05:21:48 -0500, the infamous "Buerste" scrawled the following:

Yeah, I'm not too fond of steel cases, but we clean our weapons after shooting, so what's the big deal with a bit dirtier powder? Get the Wolf for backup ammo and immediate target practice until you/he get your reloading kit. Sell the remainder later if you like, but you'll have ammo NOW, if you need it, right? I call that "insurance".

And speaking of Nobamacare, and how it'll continue to let crap like this happen, I present this Puffington Host article:

---------------------------------------------------- Thesaurus: Ancient reptile with excellent vocabulary ====================================================

Primers aren't that bad here. Recently $27.99 at Scheel's in St. Cloud. Karl, that's a good place to get reloading supplies.

Handloading shotshells is not cost effective any more but it can provide significant savings with rifle and handgun ammo if you shoot enough to amortize the cost of reloading equipment. I think 1000 rounds would be way plenty enough.

The shortage of ammo and components does seem to be easing. Some prices are significantly higher than they were a year ago. I doubt that they'll be going down any time soon if ever.

You can get once-fired brass on line for considerably less than new brass, and brass is the major first cost of rifle ammo. Once you have it, it can usually be re-used several to many times.

A handload your rifle really likes is almost certain to shoot better than any factory ammo.

Great, one of my favorite spots to wait for my better half while she shops.

Say, what model and brand reloader do you recommend? Same as gunner?

Karl

Actually, I shoot a bunch Wolf. It works fine in every weapon I've used it in. It's nice to leave the cases on the ground even though they ARE reloadable. Sometimes the primers are crimped, sometimes not. I did have a weird event with 200 rounds of .223 Wolf that I had in a sealed .50 cal ammo box. A few months in the box and the rounds turned into a rusty block. I had two 20 rd. mags in the box too and they were rusted to hell. It looked as though acid had been poured in the box. I figure the ammo somehow outgassed something very corrosive.

Since you don't enjoy the task or activity of reloading, I endorse Gunner's recommendation. That's the press Fitch chose and uses. I use a Dillon Square Deal for production of handgun ammo because I found a used one at a very reasonable price. I use an RCBS Rockchucker for rifle ammo because I'm willing to craft my rounds one at a time and I want to weigh every powder charge to 0.1 grain precision. Most rifle powders are extruded so volumetric dispensing varies more than that. Factory ammo varies considerably more than that. Such variance doesn't matter for minute of deer accuracy.

The Dillon 650 progressive press would be much more efficient than a single-stage press like the Rockchucker for producing ammo in thousand round volume. Dillon's "no bullshit" warranty really is that. They're amazing. When you call Dillon, a real person answers the phone.

Decomposing powder releases nitrogen oxides, effectively nitric acid. Did it smell like bleach?

How does nitric acid (HNO3) smell like chlorine?

Thanks, Rich

Jim Wilkins wrote in news: snipped-for-privacy@o10g2000yqa.googlegroups.com:

I can't vouch for the smell, but my father had a glass jar of 1950's surplus powder that decomposed sometime in the late 60's or early 70's. The fumes ate right through the steel cap on the jar. Fortunately, the powder was stored separate from the guns, but there were a number of boxes of ammo in the same cabinet. The cardboard boxes all became very brittle, and a lot of the brass had green surface corrosion on it.

The casualties included 100 rounds of 44 magnum reloads. They weren't pitted, they just looked a bit scuzzy. I volunteered to dispose of them & spent several fun afternoons shooting them up. My dad had a very early S&W 44 magnum revolver, and I found out first hand that the ejector would unscrew slowly from repeated recoil & lock the pistol up. Once I figured out what was wrong, it was easy to fix, but it had me going for a bit. At some point I think S&W changed the direction of the threads to eliminate that problem.

Doug White

$5,000 barrel? Holy Crap! How do you turn $5.00 worth of steel into $5k? I'm in the wrong business!

I had an old one pound can of Bullseye that I bought at an auction. A red dust would come out along with the powder when I poured it out of the can into the powder measure. The rounds loaded with it fired fine. I forget what it smelled like. Not particularly unpleasant iirc.

RWL

Decomposing powder releases nitrogen oxides, effectively nitric acid. Did it smell like bleach?

***************

One would think the shells would be sealed. Your explanation makes good sense and I've never stored ammo in a sealed container since.

And, the Dillon 650 with a Perfect Bullet feeder and factory shell feeder can easily be modified with a gearmotor or such to crank out ammo while you go watch TV! But, it would be a couple grand investment.

No..but the tops of the mountains 120 miles away are over 8000 feet.

They are called the Sierras.

Ever heard of them?

Gunner

"Aren't cats Libertarian? They just want to be left alone. I think our dog is a Democrat, as he is always looking for a handout" Unknown Usnet Poster

Heh, heh, I'm pretty sure my dog is a liberal - he has no balls. Keyton

Ive not read the Rifleman in ages. Ill hunt for it.

Ive used a few here and there over the years, generally on small bore, high velocity arms such as the 22-250 and such, but never really needed them with my barrels..so far, but they can be marvelous if the barrel is of good quality and properly installed.

One can make up lapping bullets by simply coating a standard bullet with xtra fine valve grinding compound and firing 1..or two at most, then cleaning and looking through it with a good light. Ah..someday for a decent bore scope.

Gunner

"Aren't cats Libertarian? They just want to be left alone. I think our dog is a Democrat, as he is always looking for a handout" Unknown Usnet Poster

Heh, heh, I'm pretty sure my dog is a liberal - he has no balls. Keyton