Need to open a DIEBOLD SAFE



    :-)
    Yes -- you need to know the offset from the last digit dialed to the extra rotation needed to withdraw the bolt, of course. Pretty much a constant within a single brand of safe and lock.

    At least the setting dials (hub rotates within the disc when unlocked by a special key from the inside in the S&G locks) do have 100 different points on the knurling, so you can set them that precisely. It is all down to how tight a fit the projection on the withdrawal lever is to the notches -- and it has to be at least a certain degree of loose, because the lever swings instead of moving in linearly, so there has to be a certain amount of slop.

    Of course. "You are not a security expert! We don't have to listen to you." :-)

    Indeed so.

    :-)

    Once you have it open -- you can (if necessary) disassemble the lock and set the combination to what you want. If you have the S&G style of lock, you re-dial the combination which worked to a different index line (about 10 or 15 degrees to the left of the working one), put a special key (extruded square stock with one flange sticking out, a notch to clear the backplate of the lock, and a pilot bearing on the inner end), which goes through square holes in cams on the dials -- now lined up under the hole by the re-dialing on the alternate index line) and turn it CCW to unlock the discs from the hubs. You then dial the *new* combination using the offset index line, turn and remove the key, test several times that the new combination works *before* ever closing the safe drawer or door. And make sure that you can *remember* that combination, or expect to have to go through this again.
    If you have an S&G lock apart and no known combination, turn each of the locking cams to loose, stack them back on the spindle, and rotate them by hand to line up with the socket for the end of the setting key, keep something round in there while you put the backplate back on, and then replace the round shaft with the key, dial the new combination, and lock it in as above.
    The Mosler security file cabinets had a lock which *had* to be disassembled to change the combination. You pull four screws and remove the works with the backplate. Then remove a C-clip and slide the discs off the spindle. Each one is two part. The hub is splined and snaps into a matching spline in the disc, and molded into the disc is the dial of numbers from 0 to 99. So, you rotate the hub and snap it into the disc to set the combination. Three times -- one for each disk. And make sure that you assemble them in the proper order.
    The above about testing that the combination *works* several times before you ever risk closing the drawer applies as above.

    That requires memory, which requires a reliable power source, especially to energize the solenoid to lock it against other rotation. (You might as well make it a numeric keypad to enter the combination, but again the need for a reliable power source comes into the game. And what do you make it do if the power fails? Does it lock forever? Does to fail unlocked? Do you have provisions for connecting an external power source if the battery dies? What if someone applies too much power to those connections, frying the circuit? All questions which apply to a lock with memory. :-)

    :-)
    Actually -- you are now talking about vaults, and usually the wall or the floor or ceiling are typically the weak points in there. Certainly that is how I would have tried to get into the vault at the head office of our division if necessary. (E.g. if they changed the combination and it did not work after the door closed. :-)
    Enjoy,         DoN.
    
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Well, obviously the folks that will use electronic locks do go there, but I was thinking (somewhat vaguely) more of something mechanical like a "wax or grease clutch" that would heat up with excessive repeated dial spinning and disengage the dial and the rotors, as I was contemplating a servo motor spinning the dials for hours on end. But it's really not needed or particularly useful, since there have been other solutions for decades that work fine for the purpose.
The typical small-firesafe (not much of a safe) type electronic lock seems to be battery powered, locked forever if not powered, remembers combination in non-volatile memory if the batteries die or are removed, and the batteries can be replaced from outside. Presumably they fry and stay locked if overvolted. If it's got power to take a combination, it has power to note that it's had 3 wrong attempts in the past 5 minutes, or whatever time limit you pick.
As with any, if they can pick it up and take it with them, it doesn't matter how it's locked, it will be opened. If they can't pick it up and want what's in it badly enough, they'll have means to cut it open or they'll make you open it for them... And if it's yours and it fails locked, you'll cut it open or get it cut open. I think the last time safes came up in the group there was a shaggy dog story of someone who whimsically built a vault door (surplus, perhaps) into the basement, which became known, which lead to him unlocking it (rather shakily) at gunpoint one night (nothing to speak of in it per the shaggy dog) which lead to the door being removed from the hinges for the remainder of his tenancy in the house.
I do think that the dial-spinner would be a good robot project - buy the cheap safes with lost combinations, park them in the corner until the robot non-destructively unlocks them, remove goodies if any (possible but unlikely, since goodies in lost combination safes tend to lead to the owner of said goodies having the door cut off) and sell the unlocked, undamaged safe for a better price. But it would require at least enough information to know that "this lock has to be spun 4 times to the right before the first number", etc.
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    [ ... ]

    O.K. You were thinking of powered attempts, not hand attempts, that does make a difference.

    O.K. That works. I've avoided those because I was not sure that the batteries could be replaced from outside -- or that the safe could be opened after the internal batteries died. :-)

    And then start ignoring any more input until the required quiescent period had elapsed.

    :-)
    I had an opportunity to bid on a used government surplus vault door, but just getting it home would be difficult enough. :-)

    And typically, the government security file cabinet locks (three setable numbers) jstart off to the left, not to the right (required, if the final motion to withdraw the bolt is to be in the proper direction.
    Enjoy,         DoN.
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Ecnerwal wrote:

My only experience is with the 5-number safe in our lab. It twirls the dial when the unlocking handle is pulled up.
Jon
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    Among other things -- he knew the mindset of the individual people who set the combinations, so the number of tries was significantly reduced.
    Things like a physicist being likely to use physical constants as combinations, mathemeticians likely to use "pi" and "e" as combinations, auto license plate numbers, dates of birth or marriage, names of spouses, kids, and pets and similar -- and they were not required to change them as often as later.
    I know that we had to change them about every six months, and were in the habit of using words -- converted todigits by the telephone dial (ignoring 'Q' and 'Z'). There was always a phone near the safes, so this was a convenient way to do it.
    Once, decades ago now, a sequence of three security file cabinets in one room was set to "howcum nobody toldme" or 46-92-86-(0), 66-26-39-(0), and 83-63-63-(0). This was making fun of a common phrase of one particular co-worker. :-)

    Since we had nothing above "Secret", certainly not "Top Secret" or any of the crypto or nuclear secrets (at least in our area) and most was just "Confidential" or "FOUO" (For Official Use Only), we did not have anything this Draconian.
    The closest to this is a couple of data encryption devices which I got at a hamfest (with the Medco keys for the locks), which was set up so you needed both keys to get to the bolts which kept in in the rather thick metal housing (one key for normal use, and the other for loading new encryption keys into it), and you had to spend a long time taking out a long fine-threaded screw. The first thing that happens as you start to back that screw out is a metal arm is lowered to short out the power to the CMOS RAM chip which kept the keys, so even if you got into it, you could not read the keys (and they would normally be changed in a week anyway. :-)
BTW -- for setting the encryption keys on a Wi-Fi device, I will type a     fairly long paragraph, and then take a MD5 checksum of the     paragraph and use *that* as the key. It is a good match for the     maximum length of key the devices will accept. As an example,     let me take *this* paragraph up to the colon:
    And it comes out with "eab0d091f3856c6253db169628dac12f" as the     key.
    And for an example of how little a change makes how big a     change, my editor in the test above always adds a newline to the     end of the last line so I went into it to take off that with a     different editor, and got "fa9482e83bfad920695d9022a561cc2a"
    And convert it to a MS-DOS format (CR & LF at the end of each     line) and it becomes: "76c2b9fccab610d5afa16ba685918b30".
    Unix uses only a LF (line-feed) (which it calls a "newline"     character at the end of each line, and older MacOS (pre OS-X     which is really unix with a fancy GUI over it) used only a CR     (Carriage Return) at the end of each line.
    However, the changes don't matter, since you generate it *once*,     and then type it into each system that needs it.
    Enjoy,         DoN.
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replying to DoN. Nichols, Cracka Jack wrote: Safe combinations are permutations not combinations, order matters :-)
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    Of course it does. You did not quote anything of the original article, and it has been a long time, so I forget what I said back then.
    Just how old an article did you followup to in this and the previous one. I strongly doubt that the original poster of the question is still on the newsgroup.
    And using a thermic lance doesn't do much for preserving the contents -- which *might* be important papers.
    Enjoy,         DoN.
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typed in rec.crafts.metalworking the following:

    It seems to me that one could put the safe on a mill (if possible), and "mill off" the hinges. Or round and round the door till it is no longer held in place.
    Or look into a portable mill setup.
    I have a strong box which I thought I lost the keys to. If I couldn't get it opened by a locksmith - that was the sort of route I was figuring I would be taking. -- pyotr filipivich "With Age comes Wisdom. Although more often, Age travels alone."
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On Mon, 25 Jul 2016 11:02:59 -0700, pyotr filipivich

I once read that a certain group in one of the Western State's police had discovered a method of opening safe's. They used a 8" angle grinder with cut-off wheels. This was presented in evidence at their trial :-)
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    [ ... ]

    [ ... ]

    Hmm ... in a real safe, the hinges are to support the door when it is open -- to keep it from falling and crushing your toes. :-)
    There are a number of fat hardened steel bolts around the door -- deep into the thickness of it -- which go into sockets in the frame. Mill off the hinges and the door is still not going to go anywhere. :-)
    And the Mosler and Diebold security file cabinets have at a minimum a pair of big fat bolts going into the frame on either side of the drawer front where the combination lock is mounted. There are linkages which lock the other drawers to a lesser extent when the master drawer is closed.
    And -- one which I had decades ago had a big thick door which had the multi-bolts on all sides arrangement with hinges designed to roll back into the side of the safe on the right. The rest of the safe contained a normal file cabinet. It was locked by both a combination lock and a key lock. And those combination locks are designed so if you try to drill them out, or break off the dial and then drive it through the back of the lock, a secondary mechanism double-locks the bolt, so you are back to milling off the border of the door -- which goes in steps as you get deeper. Oh yes -- the lock is also protected by cement filled with old carbide inserts, to make drilling a bit of a task, too. :-)
    "Round and round the door" would work eventually -- but that would be several inches thickness of hardened steel before you get there. :-)

    If you still have it -- check whether there are fat bolts which are operated by the locking mechanism. That might make full destruction the main choice. :-)
    And the security file cabinets come with labels specifying how long they protect against various things, including "manipulation of the lock" and "fire". But the fun one was "0 man-minutes against forceable entry". (Explosives, I presume. :-)
    Enjoy,         DoN.
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typed in rec.crafts.metalworking the following:

    A simple fireproof box, all it had was a strong latch.

-- pyotr filipivich "With Age comes Wisdom. Although more often, Age travels alone."
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typed in rec.crafts.metalworking the following:

    Yeah, there is that.
    Maybe just milling a circle in a face until it falls out. "Patience, grasshopper" -- pyotr filipivich "With Age comes Wisdom. Although more often, Age travels alone."
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On Tue, 26 Jul 2016 11:51:37 -0700, pyotr filipivich

Right, mill the steel cover off the door so you can get at the guts.

"Patience, grasshopper. This may take a while. Hardened steel is truly a bitch." http://tinyurl.com/hgj6rge
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wrote:

Ooh, -nice- safe! Beats what we have all to hell.
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wrote:

Vroom, vroom! http://tinyurl.com/jkb2zev
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typed in rec.crafts.metalworking the following:

    Well, that is one way. -- pyotr filipivich "With Age comes Wisdom. Although more often, Age travels alone."
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On Monday, July 25, 2016 at 11:03:06 AM UTC-7, pyotr filipivich wrote:

The hinges aren't what secures a safe door, they just keep it from falling on your toes when you open it. Unlike a front door (hinges on the right, bolt on the left) a safe door is typically secured by bolts on top, right, left, bottom. The big lever retracts LOTS of bolts when the safe is opened.
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I don't know much at all about safes... but I do know a little bit about math.
If there are (as has been suggested up-thread) 100 numbers on the dial, "try them all" is not practical, as there will be either 100*99*98 = 970200 possible combinations (if a number cannot be repeated) or 100^3 = 1 million (if it can). Assuming five seconds per try, with a standard 40-hour work week, the OP could expect to finish trying them all by the end of June.
If there are only 45 numbers on the dial instead of 100, he might finish by the end of this month.
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per try, with a

    Five seconds per try is not practical. Four full turns (or more) to the left, stop on first number. Go past the second number to the right twice and stop on it the third time. Left again, past the third number once and stop on it the second time, then go right to zero (assuming normal dial position), turn the little turnbar in the center of the knob, rotate right to hook and withdraw the bolt, and then operate the lever to unlock the door/drawer.
    You can't go very fast on these or the inner discs will overshoot the numbers (and thus the proper stopping place) by inertia. (This on the S&G locks, the Mosler are both somewhat more tolerant of that, and have a low inertia dial, so you can't spin it freely -- it takes effort.)
    On either lock, you want a thumb ready to press on the OD of the dial to slow it to the target and then hold it there while you shift your grip.
    My own feeling is that it would be more like a minimum of 30 seconds, and likely 45 per try, which makes the time required grow rather rapidly. :-)

    Multiply by at least six for the longer time to work the combination, so you are up to a half working year with the smaller number of combinations.
    BTW -- the same number can be used for the first and last entry, but should not be used for two immediately adjacent entries. And really, you want something like a separation of two or three. And the last entry should not be zero, because there is a permanent zero following that.
    Enjoy,         DoN.
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I was just guessing. I believe I said that I don't know much about safes. :-) So I'll take your word for it.
[...]

Let's take the lower number. That means instead of finishing around the end of June, he'll finish in mid-April -- of 2018.
But even using my guess of 5 seconds, it's hardly practical.

Thanks, DoN -- I learned a bit today. I hope the guy that suggested "try them all" did too.
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