OT: Comparison of Unix systems and window managers



You can always learn by doing.
Just learn about one thing called "sql injection", and ALWAYS keep it in mind writing web query handlers.

yes
There are different opinions as to how much should be in the database, but, I find that using HTML with embedded code leads to godawful mess. Your experience may be different. My site now is 100% generated and web page templates are separate from page specific code.
i
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Ignoramus10340 wrote:
<snip>

Thanks for the warning.

I guess I'm a bit of a perfectionist. If I store the main content in the database, I would want some kind of content management system for editing and uploading new material, and that would be a lot of work.
For content which doesn't change often, manually-edited HTML files seem okay to me.
Chris
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http://xkcd.com/327 /
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Yes. Exactly. It was very funny and to the point. Very many sites can be hacked with SQL injection. I think that somehow, PHP is especially vulnerable, but I do not know for sure. I use perl and there are some easy quoting functions like $dbh->quote( $username ).
i
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I forwarded that to our DBA team the day it came out, yup.
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Ignoramus10340 wrote:
<snip>

http://www.algebra.com/algebra/homework/coordinate/Linear-systems.faq.question.106918.html
I'm also interested to see that you've used some tables for layout on the site. I'm using tables for layout on my site, but CSS for all the other formatting. I know the complete separation of content and formatting is a noble ideal, but using CSS to emulate a table seemed like banging my head against a brick wall :-).
Best wishes,
Chris
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Here are some advantages to "separation of content from formatting" and doing "100% of HTML generated by code".
1) If you sign up an advertiser, you can make sitewide changes easily 2) You can make layout, color scheme etc selectable by users 3) You can change layout of all pages simply by means of changing code
My site is not very neat because I am such a person. I wish I was neater. But it is changeable.
i
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wrote:

I'm not against using CSS. CSS works great for setting colours, fonts, indents, etc. But I've found that if you have a layout which is essentially tabular, even if it isn't a table of data that you're displaying, HTML tables are a much simpler and more reliable way of achieving it than CSS. To me, trying to do that with CSS is hard to understand, and what you get often varies from browser to browser, particularly with older browsers. So you sacrifice the ideal of complete separation of content and formatting, but in return get something easy to understand which works even in older browsers. There is of course the argument that pages which use tables for layout don't work well with screen readers. I'm not entirely convinced by that, because many sites which use tables for layout work fine in Lynx, and I'd have thought that Lynx has quite a few similarities with screen readers. Lastly there's the argument that pages which use CSS for layout are quicker to load. I think this is a myth.
It's a matter of opinion. You take your choice.
Best wishes,
Chris
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I am not against CSS either. Not at all.

I think so, too.

I feel the same.
i
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On Tue, 30 Oct 2007 03:14:00 +0000, with neither quill nor qualm,

I haven't worked with it yet, but postgreSQL is another highly touted but free DBM. I've read that it scales even better than MySQL.
Google "postgresql vs. mysql" for more info. [standard disclaimer applies]
-- We have to fight them daily, like fleas, those many small worries about the morrow, for they sap our energies. -- Etty Hillesum
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FWIW, when I was director of the regional Science Fair I wound up doing quite a bit of the database stuff with postgresql. It works fine (and I'm sure mysql also works fine). Use whatever is easier for your web host.
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On Tue, 30 Oct 2007 03:14:00 +0000, Christopher Tidy

(snip)
It depends on if you are looking for a site where you can concentrate on content, or if you want to spend the time re-writing something else that's already out there. I had this site up and running in one evening: http://www.productrecallwatch.com / rss feeds into the site, content categorization, display layer, database calls, everything, all there. There's a bunch of apps out there already, if something meets 90% of your needs, you can always tweak it from there.

It depends. If you want to talk about this in email, my address is real.
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<snip>

It's a hobby project, so I'm not watching the clock. I'd like to learn more about programming, which is why I'd like to design the system myself.

Thanks for the offer. If I have a query I'll get in touch.
Best wishes,
Chris
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On Tue, 30 Oct 2007 18:02:52 -0700, Christopher Tidy

Understood and appreciated. Sometimes doing things for the exercise of doing them is more rewarding than taking the easy way.
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Christopher Tidy wrote:

I used to be a Unix hater! Using the command line of the old sh was pretty bad, none of the commands had the order of options the same, or the switch letters the same for the same function, etc. I used PDP-11's, then VAXes with VMS, then Alpha systems. But, then I had a reason to use Linux (the real-time version, for a CNC motion-control application) and found that things had improved quite a bit. There were some decent utilities that made the command line easier to use, and the X version of EMACS is VERY nice. I'm doing as much as I can now on Linux, and have 5 Linux systems at home, specialized for different purposes.
Linux Gimp seems to work quite well, I use it for many image processing applications.
Software bloat is a real problem! At least with Linux, you have an array of choices to deal with that. There are many window managers with different levels of features (and overhead).

What's wrong with Linux? And, how can you really tell, at this point?

I think Linux support is really good, I do that all by myself, but I know that there are people I could call if I really wanted to. There is steady improvement, and my Linux systems often stay up 100+ days at a time, between power failures. I usually wait to do serious upgrades until things are REALLY out of date.
Jon
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Try some of the Live CD distributions of (whatever...)
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On Sun, 28 Oct 2007 19:15:35 -0700, Christopher Tidy

You should consider an upgrade. An Ultra-2 is a decade or so old. Check the serial number - the first digit of that, is the last digit of the year it was produced. So if it starts with a 9, that's 1999, and so on. Good Sun gear is cheap on eBay, if you find something local you can save on shipping.

Take a look at sunfreeware.com - been around for a long time and has a better assortment. All packaged up, just a pkgadd -d ./whatever is all it takes.

Interesting. It doesn't change much if anything from a legacy standpoint, all your old stuff should work. It might suck horribly on an ultra-2 though, if it's even supported?

Pretty sure you can just install the gnome packages onto Sol10. Haven't found anything that doesn't work on 10 that works on 9 yet, and I've got 800+ Sol10 servers that my team supports...

Yes.
Errr, dunno. I ignored Mac until they went to Unix with OS X.

Ah, the GUI is little of the change in Sol10. zones are huge, for us, on server-side. Not much change for desktop but, again, anything that worked in 9 should work in 10 in the global zone.

It's fine for servers, for desktops, I'd rather install ubuntu and be done with it.

Much as I love Sun hardware, and make a living wrangling it, you'd be much better off with a $300.00 commodity off the shelf PC and Ubuntu linux. Stable, popular, and uses the apt package tool (much like blastwave). sudo apt-get packagename gets you everything you need, in the right order, and builds it so it works.

I've got an ultra-2 in the basement, off. I'm on a 7 year old Mac right now, with no reason to retire it. But if I was going to build new, it'd be ubuntu or I'd buy another Mac. Depends on the budget. Same OS more or less, the Mac's GUI is better but a Linux box would be cheaper.
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    A decade or so old, but not that bad, if you don't need interface cards which are only available in PCI format. (That is the main complaint that I have about the Ultra-2.

    In particular, I would suggest moving to a Sun Blade 2000 (but be prepared to need Fibre Channel disk drives for the boot drives -- though you *can* boot from SCSI drives in a Multipack. I did that before I got my Fibre Channel drives for my Sun Fire 280R.

    Hmm ... useful to consider -- as long as it will work without loading conflicting versions of GNU libs.

    I'm running two Ultra-60s on Solaris 10 U3, and for the most part they are Ultra-2s with PCI slots instead of SBus slots. The CPUs are 450 MHz instead of the maximum 400 MHz for the Ultra-2, but otherwise they are quite similar. Same SIMMs, same maximum of 2GB of RAM, same two internal SCA drives, same internal CD-ROM, floppy (with room for another 3.5" drive -- perhaps a DAT tape drive.
    Anyway -- Solaris 10 U3 is not bad at all on the Ultra-60 (and I would probably still be using the Ultra-2 (with Solaris 10 U2) if I had not needed a PCI slot to allow me to talk to LVD devices.
    Oh yes -- one other advantage to the Ultra-60 (and other PCI-based systems) -- I have stuck a cheap USB 2.0 PCI card (from Microcenter for about $18.00) in it, and Solaris 10 happily recognized it. I'm currently using it for:
1)    Logitech optical trackball (better than a mouse on the arm of     my Lay-Z-Boy chair).
2)    Card reader so I can read the CF cards from my Nikon D70     digital SLR (though I can also read those with a SCSI interfaced     PCMCIA reader, plus a PCMCIA to CF adaptor card.
3)    USB thumb drives, for moving more than a floppy's worth of data     between computers which are not networked, such as the Windows     2K box when I need to do income tax work.

    Be sure to *not* install the Gnome package from the Solaris 10 DVD set as well, or you may have conflicts of program versions. There is gnome stuff both in /usr/sfw/bin (which thus came from the main install DVD), and in /opt/sfw/bin (which thus came from the software companion DVD or CD).
    To be *sure* -- type "pkginfo | grep -i 'gnome'"
On my Ultra-60, I get 265 entries with the "i-" option to grep, and 225 entries without it. So -- there may be quite a bit to remove, depending on what you have installed.
    Note that one difference between the earlier versions of Solaris and Solaris 10 is that Solaris 10 does not actually use /etc/inetd.conf. Instead, you use "svcs -a" to find out what is there, and "svcadm" to turn things on and off -- no "kill -HUP <PID of inetd> after editing the file.
    Some entries in /etc/init.d actually invoke "svcadm" to make the changes. For example, look at "/etc/init.d/volmgt".
    /etc/inetd.conf does still exist, but it is mostly:
=====================================================================# Legacy configuration file for inetd(1M). See inetd.conf(4). # # This file is no longer directly used to configure inetd. # The Solaris services which were formerly configured using this file # are now configured in the Service Management Facility (see smf(5)) # using inetadm(1M). # # Any records remaining in this file after installation or upgrade, # or later created by installing additional software, must be converted # to smf(5) services and imported into the smf repository using # inetconv(1M), otherwise the service will not be available. Once # a service has been converted using inetconv, further changes made to # its entry here are not reflected in the service. =====================================================================     [ ... ]

    It particularly bothered me, because I used the *original* OS-9 from Microware. A nice multi-user multi-tasking OS which was quite happy in a mere 64k of RAM (or actually -- 56k of RAM, and 4K of EPROM, and the rest of the gap used for I/O space.
    Every process was position independent and reentrant, so it could run without memory management -- though there was a Level-2 version which did use memory management, and handle up to 2MB of RAM, IIRC.
    Of course, I used it before I used unix (v7) and if they had been tried in the other order, I might have been less pleased. But for an OS running on an 8-bit CPU (the Motorola 6809), it did quite well -- especially when compared to the original IBM-PC, which came out a bit later, and had a much larger possible address space. :-)

    Also -- zfs is a very nice (and well-integrated) version of RAID -- a lot easier to administer than the earlier versions under Solaris.

    Or run Solaris 10 on a good fast UltraSPARC system.

    Well ... my Sun Fire 280R was $250.00 with 4GB of RAM, and the OS (Solaris 10) was free. :-)

    O.K.
    My two Ultra-2s were retired within the past year -- replaced with Ultra-60s, and then the Sun Fire 280R replaced *several* SS-10 and SS-10 machines. :-)

    I keep being tempted to pick up a Mac for the Income Tax software. For the rest, I am happy with my mix of Solaris 10, Solaris 2.6, and several versions of OpenBSD.
    Enjoy,         DoN.
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Yup. I've got the OS-9 Level 2 materials sitting on the shelf right over (there). Yeah OK I need to clean up a bit but, I figure, if I save it long enough, it goes from old to antique. And I can't bear throwing it away, spent a lot of good time in that OS. Great training for Unix.

Trying to remember how that got addressed but yeah, there were some tricks to get quite a lot of memory. I was a young teen though so I couldn't afford more than 512K.

"but, where are the _games_?" (sheesh)

Solaris volume manager isn't evil once you get used to it. Certainly easier to use than Veritas Filesystem.

Depends on the point of the exercise, sure. When I get home I just want to use it, so the Mac meets my needs admirably.

Hard to argue that. I wouldn't mind having some modern-ish sun gear at home again, all my stuff is getting a bit aged. I'm also spoiled; at work we just migrated last weekend to a 4-node E25K cluster for one of our database apps. What a monster.

Yeah, maybe its time for a tech refresh.

Either way, they all speak the same language. But, I'm surprised there isn't a *nix-ish app which does taxes, other than for the Mac?
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    [ ... ]

    That was a lot more than I had -- because I didn't have the CPU board with the proper memory management --just the SWTP 6809 card, which had memory mangement of sorts, but not really good memory management.

    On the Unix v7? There were some. (Obviously, no GUI based ones. :-)
    For that matter, I ran adventure on the SWTP 6800 (SSB DOS-68) which preceded my 6809. It was interesting the way they squeezed it all into that limited address space. Each string in all the messages was replaces by a run of 16-bit numbers which were pointers into an array of individual text words, the final character of each was marked with the parity bit set instead of clear. At the time, I had a FORTRAN deck of it for the CDC 6600 (which would not compile on other systems, since it was using 6H10 formats instead of 30H2 (if I remember FORTRAN FORMAT strings properly. The 6600 did not have enough core to compile with the standard format strings for other FORTRANS, but the ability to get ten six-bit characters into a single word made it able to handle things a lot better.

    Isn't the volume manager used for auto-mounting CDs and DVDs (and floppys) -- not for being a RAID system? I thought that it was the META commands on earlier Solaris. From the "SEE ALSO" on Solaris 10 for metainit:
=====================================================================SEE ALSO mdmonitord(1M), metaclear(1M), metadb(1M), metadetach(1M), metahs(1M), metaoffline(1M), metaonline(1M), metaparam(1M), metarecover(1M), metarename(1M), metareplace(1M), metaroot(1M), metaset(1M), metassist(1M), metastat(1M), metasync(1M), metattach(1M), md.tab(4), md.cf(4), mddb.cf(4), md.tab(4), attributes(5), md(7D) ===================================================================== while zfs only has two command, "zpool" and "zfs" (with lots of options of course. :-) It even has automatic sharing of file systems in the ZFS pool if you select that.

    While I am home full time these days (retired, dontya know), and am quite happy to use Solaris for almost everything.
    [ ... ]

    The 280R was from a hamfest -- and a friend and neighbor who is still working spotted it for me. I hadn't seen ones that new, and didn't recognize it.

    Hamfests can be good -- if you are lucky. eBay can also be good.

    So am I. I guess that the commercial writers don't want to write for open-source platforms (for fear that their proprietary rights will be contaminated), and the open source people can't afford the potential of lawsuits -- it takes a really large user base to make that profitable for them.
    Enjoy,         DoN.
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