Sorry laddy boyo. The US has had a long standing program to destroy its existing stocks of BC, but no one has claimed that they have all been destroyed. The programs have had a number of well publishised stopages due to environmental concerns, and what was scheduled to have been destroyed 10 yrs ago, according to the programs, are still on going. I was under the impression you has a firmer grip on this subject. Im sorry to hear you dont. Shrug. The "discovered" stockpiles were not in the original inventory listing of chemical agents that were to be destroyed, as they were lost in the system, but they have been added to the list of things to destroy, that is ongoing.
Gunner
"You cannot invade the mainland United States. There would be a rifle behind each blade of grass." --Japanese Admiral Isoroku Yamamoto
You are just a bundle of misinformation tonight. Sigh..
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Orange was a 50-50 mix of two chemicals, known conventionally as
2,4,D and 2,4,5,T. The combined product was mixed with kerosene or diesel fuel and dispersed by aircraft, vehicle, and hand spraying. An estimated 19 million gallons of Agent Orange were used in South Vietnam during the war.
Mixing it with Kero of fuel oil made the mixture heavier, and more persistant, ie making it stick to the plants much better, rather than running off on to the jungle floor. It was NEVER used as a component of napalm, as the desired effect of nape, was to burn people and structures, not to burn off the herbicide.
You are aware that other herbicides were also used?
If you will check out the various herbicides in current usage today, you will find at least 3 of the above.
Steve..stick to what you know..not what you think you know. Btw..Ive been tested for dioxin, and while I have measureable levels in my body..they are below the danger levels found so far.
I have buried a number of friends whom were in the AOs sprayed by Agent Orange, either directly sprayed, or in the areas not long afterwards.
While the side effects of Agent Orange are tragic, they were largely unforeseen at the time, and were not the primary effect looked for by its usage. It was to kill jungle, and hence deny Mr. Charles a place to hide.
All your wishing will not make it otherwise. Sorry troup, but as you are wrong so many times with issues regarding Vietnam, and other aspects of the US military, you are again wrong on this subject.
Gunner
"You cannot invade the mainland United States. There would be a rifle behind each blade of grass." --Japanese Admiral Isoroku Yamamoto
The EPA released a reassessment of dioxin in 2001. Here's what it says about dioxin life cycle:
"The life-span of Dioxin is directly related to the amount of sunlight to which it is exposed. If left in the open, the half-life (the time it takes for the substance to degrade to ½ it?s size) is believed to be only 20 hours. However, in most instances dioxin finds refuge in near by water systems, or soil that can significantly increase it?s life. If released in to the water, dioxin will usually find it?s way into sediments or suspended materials. Under such conditions dioxin?s half-life has been estimated to excess 1.5 years. The life-span of Dioxin also depends on the climate. Because of the higher amounts of sunlight founds in hot climates, Dioxin does not last very long. However in cold, or frozen climates Dioxin can remain hidden away for centuries."
Here's a quote from an article by Dr. Gordon Gribble published by the American Council on Science and Health (ACSH) on health effects of dioxin.
"The only documented adverse health effect of exposure to dioxin is the skin disease chloracne. Although it is often persistent and disfiguring, chloracne is not life-threatening and is often reversible when exposure ceases.
Studies following certain groups of Vietnam veterans who were exposed to high levels of dioxin, a contaminant of the defoliant Agent Orange, show no association between dioxin tissue levels and cancer or other health effects. A two-part, twenty-year mortality and health-effects evaluation of 995 Air Force Ranch Hands, the personnel who handled and sprayed Agent Orange, found no chloracne, no increase in nine immune-system tests and no increase in either melanoma or systemic cancer (cancers of the lung, colon, testicle, bladder, kidney, prostate; Hodgkin's disease; soft tissue sarcoma or non-Hodgkin's lymphoma).
The authors of this study concluded that "there is insufficient scientific evidence to implicate a causal relationship between herbicide exposure and adverse health in the Ranch Hand Group."
Studies of more than 800 dioxin-exposed workers in nine industrial-plant accidents in the United States, England, Germany, France, Czechoslovakia and the Netherlands fail to indicate serious long-term health effects in these men, some of whom have dioxin concentrations in their bodies exceeding 1,000 ppt (parts per trillion) thirty years after their initial exposure. Some 465 cases of chloracne were observed in these workers.
A study of 2,200 Dow Chemical workers who were potentially exposed to dioxin revealed that they had a slightly lower mortality than a control group and that they have had no total cancer increase. A study of 370 wives of dioxin-exposed men showed no excess miscarriages and no excess fetal deaths or birth defects in their children.
Life-threatening health effects in humans, in short, have not been linked definitively to dioxin, despite our fears to the contrary. Over 40,000 scientific papers have provided enormous information about this greatly misunderstood chemical, and the scientific and medical communities will continue to monitor the health of those people who have been exposed to large amounts of dioxins. The evidence now in hand does not support claims that dioxin is a major health threat."
Here's an excerpt from the CDC on dioxin health effects:
"Many studies have looked at how CDDs can affect human health. Most of these studies examined workers exposed during the manufacture of chemicals and pesticides contaminated with 2,3,7,8-TCDD. Other studies have looked at American Vietnam veterans and Vietnamese populations exposed to Agent Orange and populations exposed to 2,3,7,8-TCDD as a result of an accident. The workers and Vietnam veterans were most likely exposed to 2,3,7,8-TCDD mainly through breathing and skin contact. People who were accidentally exposed to 2,3,7,8-TCDD in Seveso, Italy, or Times Beach, Missouri, were probably exposed through eating and drinking contaminated food and milk, breathing contaminated particles and dust, through skin contact with contaminated soil and through unintentional hand-to mouth activity.
Epidemiology is an inexact science and many of the human studies have many shortcomings which make it difficult for scientists to establish an association between 2,3,7,8-TCDD exposure levels and health effects. A common problem with most of the human studies is that the people are exposed to a number of chemicals at the same time. In most human health studies, we do not know how much 2,3,7,8-TCDD people were exposed to or how long the exposure lasted. In other studies, the people were examined many years after they were exposed and some of the effects may have not have been present at the time of examination or the effects observed may not have been caused by 2,3,7,8-TCDD.
PUBLIC HEALTH STATEMENT A number of effects have been observed in people exposed to 2,3,7,8-TCDD levels which are at least 10 times higher than background levels. The most obvious health effect in people exposed to relatively large amounts of 2,3,7,8- TCDD is chloracne. Chloracne is a severe skin disease characterized by acne- like lesions. Chloracne generally occurs on the face and upper body, but may occur elsewhere on the body. Unlike common acne, severe chloracne is harder to cure and can be more disfiguring. In milder cases, the lesions heal several months after exposure ends. In more severe cases, the lesions may last for many years after exposure. Most of the chloracne cases have been attributed to accidental exposure to high doses of 2,3,7,8-TCDD. Other effects to the skin, such as erythematous or red skin rashes, discoloration, and excessive body hair, have been reported to occur in people following exposure to high concentrations of 2,3,7,8-TCDD. Changes in blood and urine that may indicate liver damage have been observed in people. Alterations in the ability of the liver to metabolize (or breakdown) hemoglobin, lipids, sugar, and protein have been reported in people exposed to relatively high concentrations of 2,3,7,8-TCDD.
Most of the effects are considered mild and were reversible. However, in some people these effects may last for many years. Slight increases in the risk of diabetes and abnormal glucose tolerance have been observed in some studies of people exposed to 2,3,7,8-TCDD. We do not have enough information to know if exposure to 2,3,7,8-TCDD will result in reproductive or developmental effects in people, but animal studies suggest that this is a potential health concern."
So, the earlier scare stories about dioxin have largely been repudiated. No one is claiming dioxin exposure is harmless, but provable effects are much less than were previously thought. The half-life of dioxins on surfaces exposed to sunlight is also *much* shorter than previously believed.
If you wish, I can quote similar information about depleted uranium exposure.
if he didn't lie about that, he lied about soemthing else. best you look real good at what the whoel war thing took your mind off of. (-:
swarf, steam and wind
-- David Forsyth -:- the email address is real /"\
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Gary, you may want to Republican that down. Gunner's a lot like his hero Bush. Reading ain't what he do best... Keep the word's simple (1st grade) & cliff note everything.
- Yeah, you just supported what I noticed as soon as Bush-the-2nd took office, the media quipped "We are in a recession and it's YOUR fault! Big Joke!
- I'd say taking down those two big towers in Downtown NY City had a bit of influence in our negative economy. (And BOY! watch services get cut in NY State to pay for new ones.)
- Remember? Before 8 years of Clinton and Gore, "What about that 36 (random #) trillion dollar National Debt?" And in 8 years following Bush-the-1st, not one mention of the National Debt or Recession, we were in good times. Please define GOOD!
- I think most the USA press/media support the Democrats and what the hell happened to objective journalism? I don't think Bush will get re-elected (We got another Viet 'Nam whatever the excuse.), The Democrats will get the ball---most likely Hillary (Oh, yeah, I forgot, she's not running, yeah right!) and you watch how fast that National Debt gets zeroed and we will be in GOOD times again and the media will tell us how much more money we got in our pockets. It won't be true, we will still be in recession and out of work, but the media will covince us we are better off!
- I'll vote for Hillary, not because I believe in her (she was WHITEWATER!) but because this Country deserves her. It will be an interesting ride.
- Nobody in USA government supports me or the average "Joe Blow." They all support the rich and special interest groups---case closed!
- From most of the posts I have read here (including mine!) on this thread I am convinced The Electorial College is STILL justifiable!! {;^) ~~~~~~~~~ On another note: ====== "COMMUNISM and The Domino Effect." ====== How come we (USA), oh yeah, don't forget the U.N. (Big Joke!) fought Korea and 'Nam because we got to "nip this stuff in the budd" to keep it from spreading? NOW fifty years later, it's OK! to do business with a Communist country to "contain" it. (MARKETING! Same thing, just call it something else.) Sounds like history repeating. Bottom line---CHEAP LABOR! Remember Japan?
- I still think, though I've never read it anywhere, Viet Nam was about losing cheap labor for USA markets and buying Coke.
- Kurt {:{ ========= re:
Re: OT- Did the Prez lie about WMD? Group: rec.crafts.metalworking Date: Sun, Oct 12, 2003, 12:24am (EDT+4) From: snipped-for-privacy@lightspeed.net (Gunner) On 11 Oct 2003 15:22:45 -0700, jim rozen wrote: In article , Bray Haven says... A He's still trying to clean up the Clinton recession. Ah, is that what you call it when everyone has a job, and there's no federal deficit. I have to update my dictionary. Jim ============ ============ Denial is not a river in Egypt. The Recession started in the last 18 months of the Clinton administration. And as far as Surplus..IE no deficit..that was a very nice job of smoke and mirrors. However the facts quite spoke differently. Gunner ============= ============= "You cannot invade the mainland United States. There would be a rifle behind each blade of grass." --Japanese Admiral Isoroku Yamamoto
(Repeat, sorry) =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D Hi Gunner,
- Yeah, you just supported what I noticed as soon as Bush-the-2nd took office, the media quipped "We are in a recession and it's YOUR fault! Big Joke!
- I'd say taking down those two big towers in Downtown NY City had a bit of influence in our negative economy. (And BOY! watch services get cut in NY State to pay for new ones.)
- Remember? Before 8 years of Clinton and Gore, "What about that 36 (random #) trillion dollar National Debt?" =A0 And in 8 years following Bush-the-1st, not one mention of the National Debt or Recession, we were in good times. Please define GOOD!
- I think most the USA press/media support the Democrats and what the hell happened to objective journalism? I don't think Bush will get re-elected (We got another Viet 'Nam whatever the excuse.), The Democrats will get the ball---most likely Hillary (Oh, yeah, I forgot, she's not running, yeah right!) and you watch how fast that National Debt gets zeroed and we will be in GOOD times again and the media will tell us how much more money we got in our pockets. It won't be true, we will still be in recession and out of work, but the media will covince us we are better off!
- I'll vote for Hillary, not because I believe in her (she was WHITEWATER! and 55 interesting questionable related deaths) but because this Country deserves her. It will be an interesting ride.
- Nobody in USA government supports me or the average "Joe Blow." They all support the rich and special interest groups---case closed!
- From most of the posts I have read here (including mine!) on this thread I am convinced The Electorial College is STILL justifiable!! {;^) ~~~~~~~~~ On another note: =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D "COMMUNISM and The Domino Effect." =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D How come we (USA), oh yeah, don't forget the U.N. (Big Joke!) fought Korea and 'Nam because we got to "nip this stuff in the budd" to keep it from spreading? NOW fifty years later, it's OK! to do business with a Communist country to "contain" it. (MARKETING! Same thing, just call it something else.) Sounds like history repeating. Bottom line---CHEAP LABOR! Remember Japan?
- I still think, though I've never read it anywhere, Viet Nam was about losing cheap labor for USA markets and buying Coke.
- Kurt {:{ =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D re: Re: OT- Did the Prez lie about WMD? Group: rec.crafts.metalworking Date: Sun, Oct 12, 2003, 12:24am (EDT+4) From: snipped-for-privacy@lightspeed.net (Gunner) On 11 Oct 2003 15:22:45 -0700, jim rozen wrote: In article , Bray Haven says... A He's still trying to clean up the Clinton recession. Ah, is that what you call it when everyone has a job, and there's no federal deficit. I have to update my dictionary. Jim =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D Denial is not a river in Egypt. The Recession started in the last 18 months of the Clinton administration. And as far as Surplus..IE no deficit..that was a very nice job of smoke and mirrors. However the facts quite spoke differently. Gunner =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D "You cannot invade the mainland United States. There would be a rifle behind each blade of grass." --Japanese Admiral Isoroku Yamamoto
Sure, there's two of them right across the river, at the museum. Seen both of em. Also seen the Japanese tourists, who cannot seem to resist taking photos of same.
What kind of proof?
Jim
================================================== please reply to: JRR(zero) at yktvmv (dot) vnet (dot) ibm (dot) com ==================================================
I wouldn't expect Gunner to know where any Iraqi WMD's are, or Ike to know where any US WMD's are. But it does disturb me that the people who are looking have been unable to find a trace of any Iraqi weapons. Perhaps the most on-point question was asked by Hans Blix (I believe) several months ago: How could the administration be 100% certain about the existence of Iraqi WMD's [and in sufficient quantities to pose an "imminent threat" to the US, I might add] and yet be 0% certain about the location of any of them?
The curator at west point says so. Besides, why else would the tourists be snapping photos so fast? LOL.
Jim
================================================== please reply to: JRR(zero) at yktvmv (dot) vnet (dot) ibm (dot) com ==================================================
Is this the same Hans Blix who said he was certain of their existence and just needed a little more time to find them and that he could do it easily if the Iraqis would cooperate and quit hiding them???? :o) Greg Sefton
That's where our family had settled years ago. There are still houses in that town that were built by my great-grandfather.
Jim
================================================== please reply to: JRR(zero) at yktvmv (dot) vnet (dot) ibm (dot) com ==================================================
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