On 23 Jan 2004 21:26:37 -0800, firstname.lastname@example.org (Excitable
So the mainland Chinese ARE allowed to participate in free
elections? How do you expect the Fulan Gong Party to do
next year? The Christian Democrats? The Libertarians?
Go to the churches of their choice? No. Speak out against
the government? Only once.
No political freedom there. They are developing a bit of
economic freedom, so long as they don't try it on a
political level. Very similar situation to Franco's Spain.
But they can't get to a high enough level of economic
freedom to sustain their growth rate without also developing
political freedom, just like Spain and Portugal did. The
world info economy requires individual and political freedom
for its successful participants. The mainland Chinese can't
get there without some extreme changes. You aren't going to
like them. ;-)
One way or the other, the Chinese Communist Party is going
to fail - either not enough economic growth to sustain them,
or too much political freedom to keep their monopoly of
political power. It'll be interesting to see which way it
goes. I'm only sorry I probably won't live long enough to
I do appreciate having lived to see the death of that other
You obviously do not have a firm grasp on reality.
proud member of the vast right wing conspiracy
and the evil gun culture.
I was mistaken ... you guys don't read Reader's Digest. You aren't
that smart and the pages are too small for the big pictures you'd
need.for coloring Do they make some kind of mechanism that takes
care of breathing for you ? Because there's obviously not enough
between your ears to even take care of that minimal function. There's
just about nothing to say when faced with such appalling ignorance.
Let's put this into really really small words so that even you two
might have a chance to get it : I LIVE HERE, you morons. You are out
of your rabbit-ass fricking minds. Neither one of you has 1/100th of
a clue as to what China is like. No, let's get accurate : 1/1000000th
of a klew. Christ, you are stewpid.
On 24 Jan 2004 03:08:07 -0800, email@example.com (Excitable Boy)
Hmmm. I do Hamei. Have a clue. Been there. Altho it's been 14 - 15
And have friends who've been there recently, past couple years.
Friends who do speak Chinese well, as they were born in Hong Kong.
I haven't been following this debate you're having with Robert and
others. Couldn't care less about these mutual flaming parties.
But I did bother to read a couple posts in this thread at random.
Just to see if there was anything in the thread of interest to me.
There isn't. Except your comments on China perked my curiosity.
I am not one who would bash China, or the Chinese. Far from it. Tho I
have issues with their government. However, things you've said do not
coincide with what I know from personal experience, with what's been
told to me by folks who've been there in the recent past, nor with
current news reports by a whole friggin variety of sources, not just
So, curiosity perked, I did a little checking.
One of the curious things I've noted just looking a random samplings
of your posts is that the time stamping on most I looked at, in
relation to times when it appeared that you responded relatively soon
to another post ... seems to indicate you live somewhere in the
continental US. Either that or you've invented a way to make an ISP's
servers alter their time stamps just for you, personally.
At a guess, just mentally noting time stamps of several randomly
picked posts, if asked ... it'd seem to me you were somewhere in or
around California. Taking into account normal human living patterns.
i.e. Times in the day you most folks would be at work ... not posting,
evening times when folks do most of their posting. Late Friday
nights/early Saturday morning postings. And so forth.
I notice things like time stamps almost automatically. Having spent a
career in the Navy and having to, on many an occassion, be juggling
different time zones in my head. It sortta becomes habit. Like,
"Hmmm ... it's noon here, and I'm in Taiwan, what's a good local time
for me to call my wife so I'm likely to catch her home, and still
Anyway, somewhere around California appeared right. And that did jive
with the "pacbell" part of your email addy.
I was then curious, Hmmmm, PacBell does ISP in China? Not last I'd
heard. So I checked.
Excerpted from above"
"China had 79.5 million Web surfers at the end of 2003, a report by
the China Internet Network Information Center (CNNIC) out of Beijing
stated Thursday. "
"While 79.5 million would be a significant number in most countries,
it's a mere six percent of China's total population of 1.28 billion.
In the U.S., Web surfers make up 57 percent of the total population of
290.34 million. "
"China has only three Internet service providers (ISPs) -- ChinaLink
Networks, Netaway and VPM Internet Services, Inc. --"
Hmmm. That info is from official Chinese sources themselves. And it
jives with other sources of info I'm familiar with. I'm far from
wealthy, but do have a small amount of money invested in some stocks
which cause me to keep track on who is setting up new lines, services,
and so forth in the communications world. So someone getting "into"
China is something I follow. Nice big market there. As I say, I'm
far from wealthy, I wouldn't mind having a bit more money. A couple
or a few thousand more might not mean much to the Tim May's of the
world. But it's meaningful money to me.
So, how is it you live in China, but have PacBell as your ISP?
Also curious as to how you seem to communicate so freely back and
forth and seem to roam the Net at will. Since China's government is
pretty well known for blocking a lot of sites and whole ISPs, etc?
An example to read about that subject:
That's just one. Do a Google search using china+censorship+internet
and it'll turn up a whole bunch more examples.
*** No flame intended, just curious.
Or he's posting from work. Lots of people do that. China (yeah, all of
it, they only have one time zone) is exactly 12 hours different from
here (NYC time) so it's easy for me to keep track.
Actually, his usenet posts are coming through cn.net in Beijing, China
if you know how to check. Anyone can have their e-mail forwarded from
anywhere to anywhere, n'est-ce pas? Why do you think his e-mail
address is related to his ISP? Mine isn't.
<snip> >So, how is it you live in China, but have PacBell as your ISP?
Pretty much BS. I've used the net from at least a dozen different
places in many different cities in China, and notice nothing blocked.
Google and so on worked fine, including from the telephone company
office. If they are blocking those Falun Da Fa weirdos, wouldnt' miss
them one bit.
I'll leave the relative freedom discussion for another time when I
have time and inclination to argue, too nice (but cold) a day today...
"it's the network..." "The Journey is the reward"
firstname.lastname@example.org Info for manufacturers: http://www.trexon.com
Not my point, Spehro.
I know more than a little about how the net works, trust me. I'd not
be asking about a simple thing like email addys without a reason.
Wasn't my question. Could we stick with my questions?
Spehro, I was trying to determine if Hamei was, in fact, in China.
And, if he was, how he was managing to route his mail thru Pacbell,
and pay them for it as I'd expect they'd like to be paid for it.
China, whether you friggin know it or not, DOES block certain internet
traffic. Not only blocks items, but if one is in China and tries to
put up one's own web site which says things the government does not
approve of, one can end up in prison.
I think you live near New York, why don't you look up a fellow named
Lin Hai. Now a computer scientist and consultant in New York.
Originally from Shanghai. Why don't you just ask him about what
happens to folks who displease the censors in China? He managed to
come to the US after he did a couple years in a Chinese prison. His
crime? He was helping to spread around an internet based newsletter
calling for more freedom and democracy. He was advocating no
violence, no forceful revolution, nada.
The Chinese government does far more than just block Falun Dafa.
The very reason I posted one site with evidence to that fact in my
original response to Hamei. Could've posted a LOT more.
Just another couple of examples.
Myself, I needed no examples. For one, had the word from the horse's
mouth so to speak. The friends I mentioned, who were born in Hong
Kong. Have relatives over on the mainland they still keep track of.
Much easier now than it used to be. To keep in touch. And every once
in a while when they can afford it, nowadays they can take a trip to
China and actually see the relatives. Not often. They say it's been 3
times in the past 10 years. My friends do have their own kids, 2 in
college, so it's not as if they've got a lot of money to making the
trip more often.
Anyway, my friends and my wife and I were talking. And subject came
up about phone calls, regular mail, and the internet as a means of
having more contact.
And my friends say they do that but ....
Well, let's put it this way. The relatives have stuff they absolutely
refuse to say or talk about. In public. And they consider the
phones, regular mail, and internet communications as "public". That
is, being watched and monitored. They're absolutely convinced the
government does at least some monitoring. Certainly, they can not
monitor everything. There simply aren't enough people, money, and
resources to monitor every internet connection, open every letter and
read it, or listen in on every phone call. But the folks who live
there in mainland China ... and I'm not talking about the priviledged
classes, foreign businessmen or consultants, tourists, and the like
... I'm talking about the ordinary person ... are convinced that there
is at least random monitoring. And that one can go to jail, maybe
worse, if one is caught saying things the government does not approve
That's what my friends' relative say. But only in person, and only
when no one not absolutely trusted is near enough to hear.
I've also heard this from others. And, FWIW, it's also reported
routinely and regularly by members of the press ... from many
countries not just the US, by human rights groups of various sorts,
and so forth. Even the Chinese government themselves officially
acknowledge they do internet monitoring and censorship. Tho they
don't publically acknowledge the extent to which they do it.
"Regulations approved by the state council and released by the
Ministry in Public Security in 1997 say it is illegal to use the
Internet to make, produce, look up, copy or spread information that
harms the prestige of state institutions, subverts state power,
destroys the unity of China, or seeks to overthrow the socialist
Professor Andrew J Nathan from Columbia University did a study on the
issue. He tapped into China, using various means ... and the advice
of some top hackers ... and then using a database of known "outside"
sites, started to try to access them from "inside" China. And found
that the "rumors" were indeed true. His database was of some 200,000
known active sites. A tiny fraction of all internet sites. But based
on the numbers he found blocked, he worked out the math and estimates
it'd take something like 30,000 "internet police" to be keeping track
of, and blocking the percentage of sites he found them to be blocking.
BTW, this is no big secret. An internet search will show you articles
mentioning the fact that Google, Yahoo, AOL, and others have known
this for years. And routinely counter by changing certain web pages
just enough to avoid the blocking for a while, at least. A money
game, don'tcha know. They have advertisers who want the people of
China to see some of their ads. So Google, Yahoo, etc do what they
need to do to try to foil the censors.
And, of course, so do others. And the reality is, it's a losing
battle on the part of the Chinese government. Simply too many sites,
too many workarounds, and so forth. But they're still trying.
So, anyway. I was curious. If Hamei is who he says he is, and is
where he says he is. And he's managing to link to the outside world
freely, without the censors blocking him, and even use a US based ISP.
Then I wanted to know. I see that as a hopeful sign. Maybe the
Chinese government is loosening up ... or giving up ... on their
That's why I was quizzing him.
Now, as far as your statements about BS.
As I mentioned in a previous post, I've been to China. A couple
times. Actually, 3.
First time doesn't count as they didn't know I was there. :-) It was
a real short, fast trip, only a little ways into their territory.
There were these fellows who'd ... ummm ... been visiting there, real
sneaky like ... and they needed a ride home. Don't ask, I have no
real clue why they were there. I know nothing. That's my story, and
I'm sticking with it.
The 3rd time I was in China, the last time, just a few days, 4. I was
just an aid/assistant along for the ride on an official trip.
The middle time was in the early 80's. And I was there TAD for 6
months. Why? I was helping set up a special school. No secret spy
stuff or weapons facility or anything like that. At the time we
weren't even "officially" cooperating with the Chinese. But don't
believe everything you read or see on TV. There are almost always
things going on that's not in the news, nor even being publically
spoken about by politicians.
In this case, it was simple. Despite "official" tension between the
two governments at the time, ours and theirs, there were a lot of
unofficial talks, dickering, handshaking, etc. Lots of disagreements,
also. But one of the things the Chinese wanted at the time was some
help with a problem. A particular problem. China had a lot of ships
... and they sucked. As concerns reliability, maintenance, and so
Now, actually I don't have a clue as to who came up with the idea
originally. I was WAYYY too far down on the totem pole to ever know
such things. I was just a Navy man. But somebody came up with the
idea. And I was one of the ones chosen to "make it happen". And what
happened was we set up a training program for some of their people,
the Chinese. To teach students how to properly operate and maintain
steam engines, properly do repairs. How to set up a formal
preventative maintenance system. Do scheduled rotation of ships for
major repairs and rework. How to plan the jobs; manpower, materials,
time estimates, etc.
Chuckle, who can figure out politicians, diplomats, and governments?
I sure can't. Here we were at the time "officially" in a guarded and
unfriendly status towards China. Offcially, they were just as cold
and unfriendly towards us. Yet I found myself, along with copies of
all the text books and manuals from the Navy's Engineering School,
lesson plans, lesson topic guides, etc ... plus a bunch of other folks
(I was just one player among several), headed to China to "teach the
With orders we weren't to tell anyone what was going on, before or
after the trip. It was one of those "it never happened" things.
Ahhh, Geez. When I first got my orders to start the planning and
preps. It was a PIA. All those student text books, manuals and
stuff? Had to be translated. And the only Chinese I knew was enough
to order a beer, food, bed, and pussy. And a few other words best not
said in polite company. Whoever thought of the brilliant plan hadn't
thought of the problem of translating those books. When I mentioned
the issue to the Navy Captain in charge, I got one of those "Make it
<Shrug> So I played "dialing for dollars". Making inquiries here and
there. Spent days at it. Finally found the solution. Turns out the
Christians in Action had a fellow who could speak, read, and write 7
dialects of the Chinese language better than the Chinese could. They
(the Chinese) said so when some of their folks met him. Anyway, he
had a whole office load of folks who knew at least the main dialect.
I got my textbooks and manuals translated and reprinted.
It was over a year, between the time we were told "make it happen" and
things actually got going. Things had to be translated and printed.
Plus we had some reps from China in Great Lakes Illinois at the Navy
Engineering School. Some to start learning. Others taking pictures
and notes. Then going back home to set up the physical requirements
of the school. To teach sailors how to operate and fix boilers, steam
turbines, pumps, valves, regulators, pneumatic controls, etc ... yah
actually need the equipment set up. I gathered they already had the
main components in place, were now taking care of the auxiliary
components. And setting up the separate labs for teaching pumps,
copmpressor, valve, governor, etc repair.
Anyway, it was finally done and we went to China.
That's why I said off the bat to Hamei that I had nothing against the
Chinese people themselves. I know better. Nice folks.
But, then, I find most folks I meet anywhere are nice folks. And I've
been a bunch of places.
The thing is, I was treated well, had a great time.
But I also know that the folks I met were of two different sorts.
One, was ... shall we say ... a bit more priviledged and free than the
other. The other didn't complain, smiled a lot. But 6 months gave me
plenty of time to be fully aware that this last group had things they
might like to say ... but weren't gonna. Because they were afraid to.
And I'd been to numerous countries in that part of the world. And
while I enjoyed myself, ate well, drank more than I should have
sometimes, and chased ... and caught my fair share of the ladies. Fact
was, I knew the "average" Chinese person had a far more modest life
style than the folks I was hanging around with.
On Sat, 24 Jan 2004 20:26:01 -0800, "PrecisionMachinisT"
Chuckle, I hardly think so.
I certainly have not read all of his posts. But the few I browsed
certainly wouldn't have been considered "subversive".
And I doubt that China is a horrible place to live. I can think of,
and have been to, much worse places. They are, however, restrictive.
I was actuallly hoping to find signs they're getting less restrictive.
sherlock, you'd better call Mycroft in on this one ...
I thought that WAS your point, Bob .... that I'm not posting from
China. Btw, if you weren't so sure I live in California I'd let
you download the recording I made of the fireworks out the office
window the other night. Or you could talk to my assistant if you
want to dial long distance. Send a request for a phone number thru
the pacbell email address :-)
I'm REALLY impressed by your vast knowledge of the Internet, Bob.
Lessee, Did you bother to TRY the pacbell address ? Three guesses
what happens when you send mail there. ONCE UPON A TIME I had pacbell
for an ISP. Nowadays all them Usenet-generated 147k Microsoft viruses
go who-knows-where and who-cares-where. Let pacbell deal with that
crap. They deserve it. It looks like your Internet knowledge could
use a second-quarter advanced course.
You don't know that I do ... in fact, I can't get to any geocities
sites and DNS resolution here absolutely sucks. Other than that ..
here we go again. I'm not even going to respond to this crap other
than to remark that it IS a bunch of crap.
It's pretty goddamned easy. Do like Spehro did and notice that it
all goes thru Beijing. In case you didn't know, Beijing ia a city
in China. I suppose that New Jersey packets could go thru Beijing
also but it doesn't seem real likely. Btw, "was" ? I'm sitting here
in Huzhou in wan long da sha listening to firecrackers go off this
very second ... ain't no "was" about it.
Must be some more of that Sherlock stuff here ... WHY you think
my mail goes thru pacbell, I have no idea. You CERTAINLY didn't
check on it.
(Beyond that, it was actually funny : pacbell closed the SMTP
service when I turned them off but they left the POP account
running. So people could send me mail and I could get it but
I couldn't send thru the Pacbell SMTP server. Well whoopee !
All you have to do is configure sendmail to go direct and away
ya go, a free mail account Took them a good six months to notice.)
oh yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah. And you can end up in jail for life
for crimes you didn't commit in Texas, too. Whoop-deee-doo.
I believe *that*, Sherlock. Your powers of evidentiary collection
have proven to be extraordinary so far. If you swing any harder
at that crystal ball you're going to throw your back out.
Musta been dark and you made a mistake... the mouth is farther
off the ground, in case you're ever in that position again.
Sigh. The train to Shenzhen costs all of 16 HK dollars, or about two
bucks. The ferry is 160, or $20 US. Train from Shenzhen to Shanghai
might be about 100 rmb, or twelve bucks American. The STREETSWEEPERS
in Hong Kong make about what a middle management person does in China -
4,000 HK $$ ... soooo, Sherlock ....
Bob, are your eyes brown by any chance ? Do you have problems with
black helicopters ? Is that tin foil beanie really comfortable when
you take a shower ? 'Cuz you know ? the rest of your post shows just
about as much grasp of reality as we see in your Internet sleuthing.
Jesus ! it's been *days* now and they're still not out of fireworks ...
That one sounded like the building next door fell down. Maybe it did ...
anyway ... Bob, you're more pleasant but just about as misguided as
Gunner. If it makes you happy to invent conspiracies and DAMN ! either
the Americans are invading or everyone is finishing off their fireworks
before they have to go back to work tomorrow ...this is getting outta
hand .... anyway, Bob, you're wacko. DNS here sucks and I think they
may filter packets watching for tewwowists - either that or this is the
slowest DSL on the planet, which is also possible - but hey now ! So
does the US. In fact SGI recently got a huge contract to supply some
bigass boxes to the American KGB, so every cloud has a silver lining,
dui bu dui ?
I don't believe I've ever said doodly about "who I am" ... other
than talk about what's going on around me, anyway. And who I am
is definitely who I is, nothing I can do about that.
c'mon over, Jack. Others have ... I don't think I'll ask you to
stay in my house - no landing pad for the black helicopters - but
Huzhou bin guan is only a few blocks away, a nice room costs 328
rmb/night, so there ya go,
More of that Sherlock vast Internet knowledge, I see ... guess
what, Bob ? We pay China Telecom for the DSL connection. And not
to be too picky but your remarks about the only three service
providers in China ? That's also nonsense. In China we have
China Telecom, a part of the government with offices in the post
office and China Unicom which might or might not be government-
connected, I dunno. Nobody else that I was able to find during
an *extensive* search for a possible static IP provider. Not
that there couldn't be some small ones hidden somewhere but
for biggies, that's it. Another bit of your vast China knowledge
seems to be incorrect ...
Holy shit ... one more thing. If this isn't China, someone sure
as hell changed the laws in California 'cuz we now have shit going
off that makes a Lucasfilm extravaganza sound like an Al Jolson
record. That last series shook the building and lit up the entire
block .. lucky no windows got shattered. Freedom, yeah ... you guys
got a lot. Probably stashed away in a back closet for a rainy day.
On 25 Jan 2004 07:43:20 -0800, email@example.com (Excitable Boy)
The information I got about the ISP providers in China ... came from
the Chinese government itself, Hamei.
If you'd actually read my post, without making presumptions as to my
purpose, you'd have noted that.
The rest of the stuff about the blocking and censorship 1) The Chinese
government themselves admit to, and say it is their right. And I did
not even debate the point that they had the right. 2) Is well
documented by everyone and their brother, sources coming from MANY
different countries, not just the US.
So I was simply stating fact. And not once did I say the Chinese
should be bashed about this. Their government, their right. I don't
agree, but it's not my country. So said no more about it other than
the fact that I was trying to establish if there was some evidence
that perhaps they were loosening up on their restrictions.
Tell me something, Hamei ... why are you so angrily defensive?
As to the PacBell thing, I didn't attempt to send you email because
that is not my way. I don't just ping people and bother them
uninvited. Period. Particularly people I do not know, who have not
established a willingness to talk to me.
I've been on the net since before it was called the Internet, Hamei.
You can ask, or do a search in archives if you wish. I don't believe
you'll find anyone who'll say that I ever emailed em without our
having first chatted together via Usenet post, or some other means.
Nor will you find any instance in which I posted something to someone
else, who ignored said post and did not respond to me, where I did not
let the matter drop. And did not hound the person to talk to me or
respond to me. If you wish, email me and I'll give you past IDs I've
used and you can check it out for yourself.
None of those things are the way I conduct myself, Hamei.
That you were posting out of a Beijing run ISP was beside the point.
As I said to Spehro. That whole thing avoided my specific question.
Which was about the Pacbell thing. I was already aware China had it's
own ISP's. NOT MY QUESTION !!!
Now, if you'll pardon me. I have better things to do than to argue
with overly rude, overly sensitive, argumentative people. If you did
not wish to speak to me, it was simple. Don't respond. Or say go
Good bye, Hamei.
And, regardless of your thoughts, my best to you and yours.
oh, let's see why a person could become slightly riled ...other
than the fact that you called me a liar, no real reason ... with
all your great knowledge of the Internet you are so stewpid as to
claim someone is a liar based on an email address in google WHICH
YOU DIDN'T EVEN CHECK. Oh yeah, then you decided that becasue of
the times I post at, I MUST be living in California and LYING about
China ... sure, no one's liable to get upset by claims like that,
what the heck, we all like to be called liars.
How about if we turn the tables, Bob ? how about if I said everything
YOU have talked about here is a pack of lies ? *I* can come up with
proof that I live in Huzhou. What do we have from YOU except a bunch
of worthless bytes ?
Are you running away now because it's going to become painfully
obvious very quickly that you are full of bear squat ?
Nope..I moved it to Martha's Vineyard so I could mingle with the rest
of the hoi poi.
"As physicists now know, there is some nonzero probability that any object will,
through quantum effects, tunnel from the workbench in your shop to Floyds Knobs,
Indiana (unless your shop is already in Indiana, in which case the object will
tunnel to Trotters, North Dakota).
The smaller mass of the object, the higher the probability.
Therefore, disassembled parts, particularly small ones,
of machines disappear much faster than assembled machines."
Greg Dermer: rec.crafts.metalworking
On 25 Jan 2004 19:58:35 -0800, firstname.lastname@example.org (Excitable Boy)
Hamei, obviously what we have here is a failure at understanding.
And also quite obviously the failure is almost certainly my fault. As
I initiated the communication, and obviously did a poor job at
conveying my thoughts.
Unfortunately I have a habit of "thinking out loud", even on a
keyboard. Am a touch typist, do not edit things I type, and simply
type the thoughts that come to me as they come to me.
As a net result, unfortunately, my posts tend to be too long, as they
often contain my thoughts and musings which often bore people, confuse
them as to my meanings, and contain the trivia of a wandering mind
still forming it's own thoughts and conclusions which are sometimes
not even arrived at as yet.
So, I'll try to be clear.
First, Hamei, if I intended to call you a liar ... you'd be under no
doubts of it. I'd have said you were a liar, straight out if that was
the conclusion I'd come to. It is my way.
Even if in person, if I think a man is a liar, he'll know, because I
won't say it behind his back, it'll be to his face. Whether he likes
it or not. I do not ever bad mouth a person behind his or her back.
I did not call you a liar.
I was thinking aloud about the questions in my mind concerning whether
or not you were actually in China.
If you do not know, Hamei, a great deal of what people claim and say
on the internet tends to be rubbish, fantasy, and wannabe type stuff.
Thus it is my habit of never presuming that anything I read on the net
is the truth. Almost an automatic reflex for me to question, compare
one thing said against another, ask myself "Do these things match?",
does what is said match up with some other verifiable source, etc?
No offense intended to you, Hamei. I do this almost always.
If I offended you, it was unintentionally, for which I apologize.
I don't apologize, nor retract anything else of what I said.
I asked about your apparent Pacbell connection. No, I did not ping it
nor did I send you email. And I explained why. I tend to avoid
sending any uninvited/unsolicited email to anyone, except businesses.
As to whether or not you had an Chinese ISP in addition to the Pacbell
thing, was of no particular interest to me. What I was interested in
was the original question, which I've tried to clarify too many times
now and both you and Sperho at first seemed to be sidestepping.
I was wondering 1) If you were really in China, and 2) if so how were
you managing to use a Pacbell ISP? That was my question.
Simply having a Chinese server show up in the routing would tell me
nothing about whether or not you were actually in China, Hamei.
I am much too old, and have been around too much to make any
assumptions based simply on that. I have myself played that trick
more than a few times.
And if you actually read and followed a link in one of my previous
posts discussing the fact that China does in fact filter, block, and
monitor internet traffic. You'd have read how Ben Edelman and
Jonathan Zittrain, researchers at Harvard Law School's Berkman Center
for Internet & Society, did exactly that. Going in thru backdoors in
China to make it appear that their access to the net was originating
in China, so they could test out exactly what sort of things were
I posted the link to that report in a previous post. I do note you
have seemingly refused to address the matter. Or perhaps were in a
hurry, and eager to ridicule me and simply over looked it.
FWIW, even having read that article, Hamei, I did not presume it to be
truth as I almost never presume any single source to be automatically
correct or truthful. Not that I make a presumption that someone is
necessarily lying. But people make errors, rash presumptions and
assumptions, form conclusions on partial sets of facts, and so forth.
So I checked further.
As I mentioned in a previous post, all one has to do is a Google
search on China+censorship and one finds a LOT of other, independent
sources verifying the same thing. Nor are they all American, so it's
not some US conspiracy to mislead people.
Am I still seeing black helicopters and wearing a tin foil hat, Hamei?
<Shrug> Perhaps I am. But that would surprise me as I am not much
given to seeing things which are not there. And when seeing black
helicopters ... or ghosts ... it'd be my tendency not to run and hide
but rather to attempt to chase either down and investigate it,
As noted above, Hamei. If my intention had been to call you a liar,
I'd have said that flat out. In a post, or face to face.
It was not my intention.
That's why I explained what caused to me have some doubts, to
"suspend" belief without thinking you were either truthful or lying
since I did not have enough evidence to decide one way or the other,
and then to ask you.
If I'd been convinced you were a liar, Hamei, I'd have simply
dismissed your posts altogether unless I'd had reason to call you on a
lie. And I did not. Don't know you, ain't never gonna meet you, if
you'd been lying would have made no difference to me as you'd not been
using a lie to harm anyone, etc.
I read people's posts, in which they are undoubtedly lying all the
time. 99% or better of the time it's simply not worth the time to
bother calling them on it. To what purpose? I have to have a reason
to even bother.
In your case, I couldn't make up my mind, so I asked. Because I was
interested in the Pacbell link thing. Not in Hamei, not in his
discussions with friends, or his arguments with others, not in his
brags, stories, and so forth. Nothing against you Hamei, I simply
don't know you and don't follow the group where you hang around.
Someone crossposted a post.
I was interested in the Pacbell thing.
You answered that, with a reasonable answer. And I have no reason to
disbelieve it. It fits, it's reasonable.
Add, that in your previous seemingly angry response to me you gave me
a further clue.
I was not impressed about the naming of places and prices. Anyone
could look up such things, it's not as if they're secrets, and some of
the names were familiar to me.
But you did say one, minor thing which convinced me you are most
likely truthful about being in China. Or if not, you've likely spent
significant time around the Chinese.
Just as anyone could easily look up city names and places, typical
prices of transportation and so forth. So can they easily look up a
few Chinese words and phrases. However, there would be things about
any language a person would not easily know or pick up on unless
they'd actually been around the people speaking the language. In your
post you used "dui bu dui" in the same context as one who is Chinese,
or at least has spent significant time around them.
So my "suspension of belief", my unwillingness to either believe or
disbelieve, has changed. I have no particular reason to doubt you any
And I apologize for bothering you and upsetting you.
Believe as you wish, Hamei. It is your right.
My best to you and yours.
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