OT-John Kerry

Thanks, Bob. Very well done.

Harold

Seems to me citizens of Israel were air lifted (rescue) from many African states, the past Soviet and Eastern Block, most of Europe have gone there themselves to to additional freedom.

Hum -

Martin

I'm older than you. My father and uncles fought in WWII. I vividly remember Korea.

I think you ignore the well known historical axiom that the real story is rarely understood until some time has passed and emotional distance from the events has been established. That's because the emotional and ideological baggage carried by those who actually lived through the events colors their judgement, and also because often historical documents, revealing real intentions and motivations, are concealed by governments until well after those who instituted them can no longer be held culpable.

Indeed, and we need to view those events not colored by the jingoism and retoric of the time in which they occurred. That's one of the problems we still have when discussing the Vietnam War. Many of the participants still view it through the jingoist lens of the era in which they fought. They aren't willing to step back and analyze the events rationally and dispassionately.

I like to think I've thoroughly studied the history of the 20th century. I've read both the first hand accounts of those who participated (including oral histories from my relatives), and later historical analysis and unsealed documentation available from such sources as the Library of Congress.

You've certainly misunderstood my position. I have equated the legitimacy of total war in WWII with the legitimacy of the total war being waged by the Palestinian people to regain their lands and rights.

I have not mentioned Al Qaeda, or the criminal actions of 911. In my opinion, the latter have no legitimacy because their declared objectives have no rationality. They are merely the criminal actions of a religious cult, no different in principle from the followers of Jim Jones, David Koresh, or Jerry Falwell.

Al Qaeda is not a national group. It is not directed by any national government, certainly not Iraq. Using their actions as a cover for invasion of that country is like saying we need to invade Italy because we have a problem with the Mafia in New York. No one would accept such an absurd argument if their passions weren't inflamed, and their critical functions impaired.

Gary

Indeed. Which is why I asked about the claimed racism Petty the Anti-Semite kept spewing. I figured that Palestinians had to have been some genotype Id never heard of before.

Gunner

The two highest achievements of the human mind are the twin concepts of "loyalty" and "duty." Whenever these twin concepts fall into disrepute -- get out of there fast! You may possibly save yourself, but it is too late to save that society. It is doomed. " Lazarus Long

Well this is certainly true. I think this aptly wraps around to gunner's view of life, that it's a great deal easier to get the truth from your government when you are holding them at gunpoint, that if they are holding you. This sounds rather trite and quite unlikely, except it did work for those revolutionaries back in 1776.

Which reminds me, I really do want to bring that metal detector up to the fort hill behind my house in the springtime.

Jim

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Defunding the CIA was part of the "big plan". We needed terrorism to spur military/industrial growth.

Your tin foil hat is leaking again.

: > John Kerry lead the effort to defund the CIA, NSA to the : > amount of 1.3 billion dollars from 1997 to 2000. Now ask : > your self why we couldn't find out about 9/11. : : Defunding the CIA was part of the "big plan". We needed terrorism to : spur military/industrial growth.