Remington 9 mm recall

Read the comments after the piece on the Remington.
http://dailycaller.com/2014/07/25/breaking-remintgon-r51-9mm-pistol-update/
By Mark Keefe, American Rifleman
There is a reason why American Rifleman?s print edition does not review guns until they are fully in production. Often manufacturers give us the first look at any new firearm. We are invited to seminars and range events where such guns make their debut. But as a matter of policy we do not put guns into the magazine until they are fully in production.
I see no reason to tell 2.2 million readers in detail about a firearm that cannot even be ordered. The Remington R51 pistol was introduced earlier this year. It is a very interesting pistol that utilizes the original John D. Pedersen hesitation lock from the Model 51 of the last century. A group of writers including Feld Editor Wiley Clapp attended an event at Gunsite where they encountered few issues with the gun. All in all, the pre-production R51 pistols worked very well, about as well as you would expect for any new design. The problem came as the gun went from small pre-production to mass production. There are number of reports from consumers and evaluators about issues with the full production version of the gun.
Today Remington announced that R51 pistols that are out there can be sent back for a replacement from new production slated to start in a couple of months.
The R51, according to Remington, will enter production again in October. Those who have an R51 can send it back to Remington and will be supplied with a new R51, two magazines and a Pelican case for their trouble.
The full text of Remington?s announcement is as follows:
?Earlier this year, we launched the innovative R51 subcompact pistol to critical acclaim. During testing, numerous experts found the pistol to function flawlessly. In fact, they found it to have lower felt recoil, lower muzzle rise and better accuracy and concealability than other products in its class.
However, after initial commercial sales, our loyal customers notified us that some R51 pistols had performance issues. We immediately ceased production to re-test the product. While we determined the pistols were safe, certain units did not meet Remington?s performance criteria. The performance problems resulted from complications during our transition from prototype to mass production. These problems have been identified and solutions are being implemented, with an expected production restart in October.
Anyone who purchased an R51 may return it and receive a new R51 pistol, along with two additional magazines and a custom Pelican case, by calling Remington at (800) 243-9700.
The new R51 will be of the same exceptional quality as our test pistols, which performed flawlessly.
We appreciate your patience and support.?
--
Your country is desolate, your cities burn with fire; your land,
strangers devour it in your presence, and it is desolate,
  Click to see the full signature.
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
"Steve from Colorado" wrote in message
Read the comments after the piece on the Remington.
http://dailycaller.com/2014/07/25/breaking-remintgon-r51-9mm-pistol-update/
By Mark Keefe, American Rifleman
There is a reason why American Rifleman?s print edition does not review guns until they are fully in production. Often manufacturers give us the first look at any new firearm. We are invited to seminars and range events where such guns make their debut. But as a matter of policy we do not put guns into the magazine until they are fully in production.
I see no reason to tell 2.2 million readers in detail about a firearm that cannot even be ordered. The Remington R51 pistol was introduced earlier this year. It is a very interesting pistol that utilizes the original John D. Pedersen hesitation lock from the Model 51 of the last century. A group of writers including Feld Editor Wiley Clapp attended an event at Gunsite where they encountered few issues with the gun. All in all, the pre-production R51 pistols worked very well, about as well as you would expect for any new design. The problem came as the gun went from small pre-production to mass production. There are number of reports from consumers and evaluators about issues with the full production version of the gun.
Today Remington announced that R51 pistols that are out there can be sent back for a replacement from new production slated to start in a couple of months.
The R51, according to Remington, will enter production again in October. Those who have an R51 can send it back to Remington and will be supplied with a new R51, two magazines and a Pelican case for their trouble.
The full text of Remington?s announcement is as follows:
?Earlier this year, we launched the innovative R51 subcompact pistol to critical acclaim. During testing, numerous experts found the pistol to function flawlessly. In fact, they found it to have lower felt recoil, lower muzzle rise and better accuracy and concealability than other products in its class.
However, after initial commercial sales, our loyal customers notified us that some R51 pistols had performance issues. We immediately ceased production to re-test the product. While we determined the pistols were safe, certain units did not meet Remington?s performance criteria. The performance problems resulted from complications during our transition from prototype to mass production. These problems have been identified and solutions are being implemented, with an expected production restart in October.
Anyone who purchased an R51 may return it and receive a new R51 pistol, along with two additional magazines and a custom Pelican case, by calling Remington at (800) 243-9700.
The new R51 will be of the same exceptional quality as our test pistols, which performed flawlessly.
We appreciate your patience and support.? ============================================================= Although there are exceptions (Ruger; S&W since they were bought out), American firearms manufacturers have been among the most antiquated metalworking operations in the civilized world. I visited Colt Arms and S&W in the '80s. It was like taking tours of industrial museums.
I'm sure they've improved since then -- well, I'm sort of sure -- but they still aren't within a cannon shot of other high-volume metalworking OEMs. Now, if GM could just figure out how to build a starter switch....
--
Ed Huntress


Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
On 07/29/2014 08:20 AM, Ed Huntress wrote:

I recall seeing some documentary on TV that showed primitive "factories" in Afghanistan (or maybe it was Pakistan) where gunsmiths hand manufactured AK 47s and copies of various Soviet era firearms in their small mountain villages. The area where they were manufactured was one of those places Donald Rumsfeld referred to as "ungoverned zones." I suppose those mountain people are sort of a snapshot of what a post-SHTF world would look like. They've defeated every army that has tried to conquer and subdue them dating back to Alexander the Great.
--
Your country is desolate, your cities burn with fire; your land,
strangers devour it in your presence, and it is desolate,
  Click to see the full signature.
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
"Steve from Colorado" wrote in message

I recall seeing some documentary on TV that showed primitive "factories" in Afghanistan (or maybe it was Pakistan) where gunsmiths hand manufactured AK 47s and copies of various Soviet era firearms in their small mountain villages. The area where they were manufactured was one of those places Donald Rumsfeld referred to as "ungoverned zones." I suppose those mountain people are sort of a snapshot of what a post-SHTF world would look like. They've defeated every army that has tried to conquer and subdue them dating back to Alexander the Great.
=================================================================[Ed]
IIRC, that was "60 Minutes," between 15 and 20 years ago, and they showed a kid with a file, using his feet for a vise, making an AK47. I was incredulous, wondering where they got the barrel and so on, but I guess it was real.
--
Ed Huntress


Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
On 7/29/2014 11:43 AM, Ed Huntress wrote:

Youtube used to have that, under the title "The gun makers of Pakistan".
. Christopher A. Young Learn about Jesus www.lds.org .
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
On 7/29/2014 10:43 AM, Ed Huntress wrote:

When my sister was living in Islamabad, I asked her to visit Darra in the tribal areas where these arms are "hand crafted". She said Western tourists were not allowed or welcome.
She did get me a prayer rug decorated with traditional mujahdin motifs like a Kalashnikov and an RPG. I explained to her what an RPG was.
She was living there when an ammo dump was blown up by terrorists, (1987?) stray ordnance everywhere and bomb craters in front of her house. Complete with body parts.
She had her third daughter there. Sort of appropriate, since the first two were born in Spain and Ecuador.
David
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
Ed Huntress wrote:

I would think making an AK without a parts kit would be a stretch.
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
On 7/29/2014 11:20 PM, rbowman wrote:

You would be wrong. Having a parts kit makes it easy, you don't have to deal with heat treating or fiddly precise fit. But nearly anything a full machine shop can make can be made with hand tools by someone with the skills and time. An AK47 might take 60 hours, a M16A4 90 hours (fiddly precise fit), but when you work for $1 an hour, it's cost effective.
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
David J. Hughes wrote:

Maybe, but I doubt highly skilled craftsmen making about 40 AKs a year are where it's at. The religion might be medieval but I think machine tools have found their way to the 'stans. The snuffies sit on the floor doing the assembly; the machinists make the parts.
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
Gunner Asch wrote:

is-gem-row.html

http://recettedetamere.com/videopage/on/-cQDvBrVCCM.html
The video starts with a bunch of guys sitting around with files fitting pieces but then it cuts to a rather well equipped machine shop. I'm not saying a kid with a file and his feet can't beat a flat into an AK receiver and do the assembly, but I rather doubt he's making trunnions, fire control groups, and so forth with a file. I doubt he's even making that strange little mainspring on his own. Uncle Abdul is making the parts kit with his Bridgeport, lathe, and so forth.
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
"rbowman" wrote in message

is-gem-row.html

http://recettedetamere.com/videopage/on/-cQDvBrVCCM.html
The video starts with a bunch of guys sitting around with files fitting pieces but then it cuts to a rather well equipped machine shop. I'm not saying a kid with a file and his feet can't beat a flat into an AK receiver and do the assembly, but I rather doubt he's making trunnions, fire control groups, and so forth with a file. I doubt he's even making that strange little mainspring on his own. Uncle Abdul is making the parts kit with his Bridgeport, lathe, and so forth.
============================================================ {Ed]
That's exactly how it looks to me. It's all pretty impressive, nonetheless.
--
Ed Huntress


Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
On Wed, 30 Jul 2014 10:21:41 -0400, "Ed Huntress"

At one time I had a 12 gauge single shot pistol made in one of these "back-woods gun shops" in N. Thailand. The shop where it was made had a drill press, a pedestal grinder, an AC welder, an abrasive "cut off" machine, and a couple of guys working there.
The pistol didn't look that bad, fired when you pulled the trigger and I once killed a snake with it so I guess that it served the purpose it was made for.
--
Cheers,

John B.
  Click to see the full signature.
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
< snipped-for-privacy@invalid.com

N. Thailand? I spent a year at NKP. 1970 phil kangas
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
On Wed, 30 Jul 2014 21:47:21 -0400, "Phil Kangas"

I can only sympathize with you. I spent about six months there in 1972 and the only memorable thing about it was I got to see one of those giant catfish :-)
But the 12 gauge pistol was made near Udorn.
--
Cheers,

John B.
  Click to see the full signature.
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
Ed Huntress wrote:

No argument there and it's something governments would rather not think about. After all, designs like the Sten could be turned out by a well equipped bicycle shop. All the furor about 3D printing ignores some basic facts.
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
Steve from Colorado wrote:

'Restrepo' is a good documentary about the Korangal Valley. The landscape looks like a lot of the Rockies and wasn't adaptable to mechanized warfare. 42 guys died before the Army decided thet didn't really want the valley after all. I think they went back once for a visit.
Mountains have never been friendly to invaders.
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
Ed Huntress wrote:

I think the companies that were bought by Cerberus did get some new machinery. Now that the three headed dog has lost interest and is peddling the group, they may come out better. AMF didn't know squat about motorcycles and almost killed Harley, but they did buy some shiny new CNC machinery that the new owners could use effectively.
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
"rbowman" wrote in message
Ed Huntress wrote:

I think the companies that were bought by Cerberus did get some new machinery. Now that the three headed dog has lost interest and is peddling the group, they may come out better. AMF didn't know squat about motorcycles and almost killed Harley, but they did buy some shiny new CNC machinery that the new owners could use effectively.
======================================================== [Ed]
I've read that things are much better since the buyout, but I haven't been back to see.
When I was with Wasino (now Amada Machine Tools) around 1998, we sold a couple of turn/mill machines to Colt, specifically for machining bolts for M-16s. I think we quadrupled their production, or something like that, with just two modern machines. They really were pathetic.
US gun makers didn't used to have profitability problems. But then a series of hits forced them out of the dark ages. One big one was that the highly skilled workers who fitted and finished the guns were retiring. Winchester felt that 'way back in the early '60s, when they switched production on the Model 70 to a more modern approach, with (for the day) precision machining to replace the hand-fitting.
--
Ed Huntress


Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload

I think (from much study) that part of the problem is that except for John Garand and maybe Browning and Marc Birkigt, the designers of the most innovative firearms rarely understand production engineering. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marc_Birkigt
It wasn't always like that. In the mid-1800s firearms manufacture held the lead in innovative production methods and machinery. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robbins_and_Lawrence_Armory_and_Machine_Shop http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elisha_K._Root http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christopher_Miner_Spencer Perhaps the apparent superiority of their methods discourages ambitious and creative younger engineers from the field? Mauser "perfected" the bolt action rifle in 1898 and then stuck with that design through WW2.
-jsw
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
"Jim Wilkins" wrote in message

I think (from much study) that part of the problem is that except for John Garand and maybe Browning and Marc Birkigt, the designers of the most innovative firearms rarely understand production engineering. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marc_Birkigt
It wasn't always like that. In the mid-1800s firearms manufacture held the lead in innovative production methods and machinery. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robbins_and_Lawrence_Armory_and_Machine_Shop http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elisha_K._Root http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christopher_Miner_Spencer Perhaps the apparent superiority of their methods discourages ambitious and creative younger engineers from the field? Mauser "perfected" the bolt action rifle in 1898 and then stuck with that design through WW2.
-jsw
=========================================================== [Ed]
American manufacturing, the "American System" as it was known around the world at the time, really came into its own with firearms manufacture. I studied the history of it extensively when we wrote the 100th Anniversary issue of _American Machinist_, back in 1977. There were a lot of innovations but parts interchangeability wasn't really one of them. Nor were gun parts really interchangeable until much later.
At some point they dropped the ball. Why, I don't really know. Some of it was that they were pretty fat and happy for a long time, but they seemed to turn their back on a lot of things. The only periods when they really sharpened up their manufacturing were during wars.
--
Ed Huntress





Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload

Polytechforum.com is a website by engineers for engineers. It is not affiliated with any of manufacturers or vendors discussed here. All logos and trade names are the property of their respective owners.