WTB: shaper head assembly

George..you looking for the clapper box or the clapper box, compound etc?

What length extension do you need and what size tooling will you be running?

Gunner

"I think this is because of your belief in biological Marxism. As a genetic communist you feel that noticing behavioural patterns relating to race would cause a conflict with your belief in biological Marxism." Big Pete, famous Usenet Racist

======================== I want the whole skippy.

Actually as I considered the problem in more depth I could even use the ram. Largest tool that I would ever consider using is

The following may be of more interest to the RCM people than the AMC people (although the keyway question was asked in AMC).

As you may recall I have been exploring the interest in armstrong [hand powered] shapers for occasional use.

As I was planning the prototype while setting in the shop drinking a root beer, it came to me that I already had far better machine slides that I was ever likely to build, namely those on the lathe.

After some additional consideration and another root beer, it appears that the same pieces, although assembled/installed in different configurations, could provide both a keyway cutter/broach for work in the headstock and a light duty armstrong traveling head shaper.

In many cases it appears that a small shaper, even if hand powered (and in some case particularly if hand powered, permitting delicate operations on small parts such as sight bases), would provide more functionality to many home shop machinists / model makers than a milling attachment, in that the need for special tooling/fixturing is minimized, and the control is better. Indeed, with only a change in grind [rake/relief], the same HSS tools can be used on both the lathe and shaper, and with a little care the tools can easily be resharpened. Even for the maintenance machine shop this could be a handy, even life saving, addition as more spare parts must be fabricated because of unavailability or excessive lead times. Many operations that are trivial with a shaper and a hand ground tool bit are difficult with a vertical mill and may require a custom cutter. Of course the production rate is much higher with a mill and multipoint cutter, but when you are only making one, the original part was made with a shaper, there is 2 weeks lead-time on the special cutter, and the factory is down....

The basic thought is to bolt the shaper ram to the cross slide and use longitudinal motion toward the headstock for a key seater/broach and toward the tail stock [must be removed] end for a shaper. The cross slide is used traverse the ram and tool across the part. The compound on the ram is used to adjust the vertical height/ depth of cut as a shaper.

Assuming there is a shaper ram available, the problem is then how to power this lash-up. A review of the old pictures of similar universal style machines gave several hints, but these appear to be overly complex, and naturally enough don't incorporate components that were developed later.

If armstrong power is used, many of the complications with simple linkages such as changes in stroke length and mechanical advantage disappear as the operator can pull the handle a little farther/faster as required.

What I now envision is a block that bolts across the bed of the lathe (not on the ways) to which a lever is mounted. For key seater operation the block mounts to the right of the cross slide with horizontal lever action. For shaper operation the block mounts to the left of the cross slide with vertical lever action. In both cases [different] lever extensions will be required for convenient operation. Motion is transferred from the lever to the cross slide through a block that bolts to the cross slide and a threaded rod [allthread] with a ball/Heim joint on each end. Gross stroke length and mechanical advantage is adjusted by moving the ball/heim joint on the lever. By using ball/heim joints, any problem with binding due to cross slide movement relative to the lever is eliminated at the cost of some changes in mechanical advantage, which can be minimized with a fairly long rod.

On my lathe at least, the tail stock end is well finished, and I can bolt a vertical plate with several tapped holes and some guide pins to it, although this will required drilling and tapping two or three holes in the bed. The guide pins are to keep an inexpensive [Enco] right angle iron in a known orientation, and the tapped holes will allow bolting it at the desired working height. If an aluminum sub plate is installed on the angle iron, and faced with the shaper, this should be true. The vertical plate and possibly the angle iron/sub plate should be able to stay attached, as they won't be in the way.

Not the thing for any type of production, but should be very handy for one-offs or delicate work. Should be an easy/quick change over.

Unka George (George McDuffee) ============================= When you give power to an executive you do not know who will be filling that position when the time of crisis comes.

Ernest Hemingway (1899-1961), U.S. author. "Notes on the Next War: A Serious Topical Letter," in Esquire (New York, Sept. 1935; repr. in By-Line Ernest Hemingway, ed. by William White, 1967).

More on the shaper clapper box/down slide/arm search.

So far I have come up empty for the smaller sizes I am looking for, so it looks like it is make it from scratch time. I have the Gingery shaper book [see: No 163 about ½ down the page at

Because of the depth of experience on AMC in all phases of machining and machine design I am posting here as well as RCM.

Several questions for the gurus:

1. What are the benefits and drawbacks of dovetail v square edge for a clapper box slide if any?
2. I see both 45 degree and 60 degree dovetail cutters and slides in use. What are the benefits/drawbacks of one angle over another?
3. Is there any benefit to be gained from installing UHMW or Teflon "glide tape" in the female dovetail or square edge? For example:
   formatting link
   (Nothing special about this site - just one I found on the web.) Suggestions for other materials/suppliers would be appreciated.

Any/all suggestions appreciated.

Unka George (George McDuffee) ============================= When you give power to an executive you do not know who will be filling that position when the time of crisis comes.

Ernest Hemingway (1899-1961), U.S. author. "Notes on the Next War: A Serious Topical Letter," in Esquire (New York, Sept. 1935; repr. in By-Line Ernest Hemingway, ed. by William White, 1967).

A dovetail only needs one means for adjusting the play. A flat needs two (side and perpendicular).

The 60° is a bit better in taking sideloads. And it can be better scrapped. Go with the tradition and make it 60°

There is a drawback. It can be compressed and will increase play. A _thin_ coating would make a difference. But for a shaper, where you don't move the dovetail under high loads? Waisted money.

Nick

===================== Thanks for the information.

Next questions.

#1 A review of the literature indicates that the last and presumably most highly developed commercial Cincinnati shapers featured what they called a "solid" tool slide as opposed to the older open sided type. Basically the only difference is that with the solid type tool slide, the male dovetail w/ clapper box moves while the female dovetail is bolted to the ram, while in the older "open" style, the male dovetail is bolted the the ram and the female dovetail w/ clapper box moves. If you have Steiri [ISBN 1-55918-146-X] see page 111

Does any body know if there is any real difference? Just hype? or only a difference for high volume high load commercial use?

#2 A review of the clapper box designs indicate that the last, high end commercial shapers used a taper clapper block pin rather than the traditional straight pin. I can get a taper pin reamer for not that much money, and a tapered hole is only slightly more difficult to ream that a straight one.

Does anyone know if there is any detectable differency by mere mortals, or was this simply more hype or perfection for perfections sake, or possibly only of use/interest for a high volume high load production machine? [Stieri p135]

Thanks for your help

Unka George (George McDuffee) ============================= When you give power to an executive you do not know who will be filling that position when the time of crisis comes.

Ernest Hemingway (1899-1961), U.S. author. "Notes on the Next War: A Serious Topical Letter," in Esquire (New York, Sept. 1935; repr. in By-Line Ernest Hemingway, ed. by William White, 1967).

Umm ... Sounds more like a hype. My Gack has a female clapper box end. I can't see any advantage for both solutions.

Mine has a tapered pin.

I was a bit puzzeld why they used the tapered pin. But with a little bit of thinking, you see that this way you can minimize and (to some extend) adjust the play of the clapper*). You want very little play in any direction for a nice cut. So the swinging part of the clapper box has to have a nice gliding fit in the cutout of the steady part of the clapper box. And then you have the tapered pin that reduces play.

Nick

Sorry that I come here again with OT-postings. I really like to help anyone who is on-topic here. Even if he is an known OT-poster. Reducing the OT-postings would increase the quality here.

Maybe it is better if you don't answer that last part. :-))