Addendum to LDRS 23 DVD

I thought certifications are awarded if a rocket is lost as long as deployment is seen? Is this not the case for L3 or is it never the case?

Brian Elfert

NAR L3 certification info, off their web page, states:

"3.7 The rocket shall be returned for post-flight inspection. Models that cannot be returned for post-flight inspection, even if they are visible in a tree or power-line cannot be certified."

I can't really find anything specific in Tripoli policy on this, at least not for L3. I swear I had read something that stated that certification were good if the rocket deployed but was lost.

Brian Elfert

How do you inspect the rocket for damage if it is not recovered?

Bob Kaplow NAR # 18L TRA # "Impeach the TRA BoD" >>> To reply, remove the TRABoD!

COOL!!!

Congratulations Shannon!!!

I would guess that it's never the case. We had a club member attempting his L2 last december. Chute deployed, but they couldn't find the rocket. He ended up doing another launch in March, I believe. A farmer found the original attempt a couple weeks later...

Eldred

G. Harry Stine is prolly spinning in his grave

The final call is always up to the TAP witness or Prefect. I don't have my own cert forms any more, but I seem to recall the TRA L1 and L2 cert paperwork saying that a cert requires only visual confirmation of the successful deployment and functioning of the recovery system. If the rocket cannot be found or cannot be retrieved, the TAP or Prefect may still grant the cert. L3, however, requires that the rocket be recovered for inspection and determination of continued flight worthiness.

I was at a launch where a buddy failed his L1 cert because he landed on a rock and cracked a fin at the root. Although the flight and deployment were good, and the recovery system was appropriate for the grassy field, the prefect denied the cert.

I've always wondered if the rocketeer could have just left the rocket out in the field after he spied the landing damage. He could have then come back in and said "Sorry, I couldn't find it", and then gone out again later to retrieve the rocket, after his cert papers had been signed.

...Rick

A less than honorable rocketeer certainly could have. And would always know they had done so.

I wonder what someone would say if what happened to one of my upscaled Sprites last weekend happened to a cert flight. It landed in a large paved area, and was dragged across it by the wind. By the time I got to it, it had suffered extensive drag damage, breaking off one of the fin tips, cracking another, and scraping the h3!! out of the end of the body tube. All clearly post recovery. I've had similar happen to HPR models, but not on one of my cert flights.

Bob Kaplow NAR # 18L TRA # "Impeach the TRA BoD" >>> To reply, remove the TRABoD!

Actually, dead people don't spin. It's impossible.

Just a FYI post ;)

That rule is inconveint. Ignore it.

But don't change it, we may need it for future targeted enforcement actions.

Jerry

That philosophy, is what got you into the trouble you're in now.

Sort of my point. I'm inclined to think all cert attempts, at all levels, should actually require the rocket to be returned for inspection and verification of continued flightworthiness.

A successful cert flight should include successful recovery, too. If it drifted off the field, or over to that big tree, then perhaps you didn't plan and prepare appropriately. Your chute was perhaps too big, or you should have used dual deployment for a lower main chute altitude, or you should have used a smaller motor for that field, or you should have used a beeper or transmitter, or you should have put it away to try again another day because the winds were too high, or...

...Rick

In this case, the rocket landed on the other side of the hangar at Geneseo. I think it's safe to say that is the closest point the river comes to the launch pads (especially the away cell). If I remember the overhead photo that was provided in the LDRS packet last year, the river is something like 1700' away from the pads. So, the rocket was recovered in an acceptable recovery radius, it just had the misfortune of landing in that one particular spot. I agree, if the main popped early, and it drifted miles away, it would be a different story.

-Rich

snipped-for-privacy@dunseith.com wrote:

...or you should have bulldozed the field; and removed *all* the trees beforehand.

Absurd, of course...but having such an open-ended stipulation about requiring that the rocket be inspected, can lead to such absurdity. What if you trip, while bringing the rocket in, and you fall on it, smashing it? Does this negate the qualification? Certain "accidents" or "acts of nature" must be excused.

Hi Rich. In this case I think it's perfectly acceptable for the cert to be handed over almost a year later, after the rocket was found and inspected. And despite any damage it must have sustained from spending the winter out in the field, as well. If the inspector feels the rocket safely survived its flight and recovery, and was damaged instead by the elements and not the flight profile, I'm more than happy with the cert being handed over. And I think denying the cert until the rocket could be inspected was the right move. ...Rick

Hi Rich. In this case I think it's perfectly acceptable for the cert to be handed over almost a year later, after the rocket was found and inspected. And despite any damage it must have sustained from spending the winter out in the field, as well. If the inspector feels the rocket safely survived its flight and recovery, and was damaged instead by the elements and not the flight profile, I'm more than happy with the cert being handed over. And I think denying the cert until the rocket could be inspected was the right move. ...Rick

Sorry Greg, but I disagree that expecting just one, single, almost-perfect flight for certification is an absurdity. For just one flight the rocket has to fly safely, in a stable manner, deploy its recovery system properly as designed, be recovered safely and undamaged, and be returned for inspection.

If it lands in a tree and can't be returned for inspection, I say "no cert for you" ... yet. If you get it out of the tree two months later and get it inspected, and the inspector decides that any damage on it was from the elements and from banging around in the tree on windy days, then you get your cert ... at that point.

If you're walking back with your perfectly recovered rocket, and you trip and fall on it and break it, then it'll be up to your inspector as to whether he's willing to agree that all the damage was from falling on it, and not from the flight and recovery.

All I said was that I thought a cert rocket should be returned for inspection. If it's damaged in any way, then the inspector can make a call as to the extent and cause of the damage, and whether it impacts the cert or not. But I still think the rocket needs to be recovered for the flight to qualify as a successful cert.

...Rick

I agree that the rocket needs to be returned for inspection.

When I did my Level 1 flight, for example, one of the things that I WANTED inspected was the piston recovery system. I wanted the certification team to verify that the strap, piston, etc., were still viable for another launch. That's part of the point of the inspection, to be sure that the rocket (including internal pieces that you may not see right away) were properly selected/installed, and sometimes these are things that you just can't tell without a close-up inspection. I would have fully expected that if the piston or strap were damaged such that they couldn't be used for another flight, that I would have been denied the certification.

Another example requiring review -- did the launch lug strip off? Without getting the rocket back, you won't really know (unless it's obviously sitting on the rod ). The whole point of the review is to assure that the user can build a rocket well enough that not only will it fly, but it will be able to be re-flown.

I would add that sometimes these things require a little more care than usual to review -- I recall someone (a newbie to mid-power) launching an Aerotech Initiator (as I recall) a couple of years ago that became a lawn dart. Upon getting the rocket back, it was found that the motor had ejected -- because the 'steel wool baffle' stuff had been crammed so close together that there was no airflow through it (may have had a bit of glue, as well). While this COULD have been checked prior to the flight, it WASN'T checked (not a cert flight, after all, and though this was a newbie to mid-power, it wasn't a rocketry newbie). These things simply can't be checked without actually looking at the rocket afterwards.

David Erbas-White