[F-FT] Where is the line regarding G motors



NAR and Tripoli certainly do (now).
Jerry

I have questions about that claim.

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Jerry Irvine, Box 1242, Claremont, California 91711 USA
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Yes.
Except.
NAR then codified it to adults.
Hence.
Duh.
See, not everything is TRA's fault!!
Jerry
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Jerry Irvine, Box 1242, Claremont, California 91711 USA
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david: the 62.5 g limit alluded to in CPSC applies only to minors....It does not apply to adults.
the limitations of power and the labeling requirements, that are required by the CPSC for sales of model rocket motors, are limited to 62.5 if they are indeed minors...
THe labeling and marking requirements of the CPSC were put in place to get model rocket motors exempt from the FULL labeling and marking requirements of the FBSA Federal Banned Substances Act..
The labeling and marking required by the CPSC is to protect children not adults. The CPSC could care less if you are 18 (an adult) and buying model rocket motors exceeding 62.5g.
This is where NFPA 1125 kicks in... the NAR/TRA enshrined into NFPA 1125 the 62.5 g limit as the upper limit for model rocket motors.....they could have chosen 125g...... The reason they didn't was for "compatability" with the CPSC ,even though thisd 62.5g only applies to minors, not adults. What I am trying to say is there are "minimum" standards set by the CPSC that 62.5 and < model rocket motors have to adhere to, to be sold to minors. . If anybody wanted to create > 62.5g , a 75 g, a 100g, 125g "model rocket motors" they would probably have to be called something else, like large model rocket motors. And the manufacturer of such could require that they be sold from "behind the counter" to adults only with proper id....
This is what AT/RCS does with their 18/24/29mm BCDEFG motors. Initially they were actually banned by the CPSC due to their metallic construction. Well actually the CPSC slapped AT/RCS with a "restrainig order" prohibiting their sale, UNTIL AT/RCS provided documentation that they would be sold "behind the counter" with proper id, to insure the purchaser was indeed an adult 18 yrs old and not a minor.
As we all know, these motors are sold out in the open, to minors in most states and most hobbies stores could care less about enforcing CPSC orders.
But this isn't AT/RCS fault nor responsibility unless of course the store in question is perhaps a registered AT/RCS dealer. AS a registered AT/RCS with protected territory, AT/RCS could draw up the franchise agreement such that it specifically states that motors > 62.5 would never be sold to minors directly. They could always of course sell them "indirectly" through parents,guardians, etc over 18.
I can only assume the reason they did not define a model rocket motor as 125g max was that Estes and other manufactureres would then be responisble for additional testing for the larger model rocket motors, if these motors were to be sold to minors, again with the limited marking and labeling requirements.
If model rocket motors do not conform to the CPSC requirements. then they cannot be sold to minors.....
hth shockie B)
wrote:

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FBSA should be FHSA Federal Hazardous Substances Act,,
See back before 1973, model rocket motors were considered hazardous substances (FOR MINORS ONLY!!!) and to be able to sell them on the Open Shelf (hobby stores, toy shops, and now Wal-Mart,etc) Estes was required to submit their model rocket motors to testing by the CPSC.
In the testing that was done by the CPSC(or was provided to the CPSC by Estes) , it was determined that these motors behaved as flammable substances and were also presurrized containers. That being the case, for Estes to legally sell them to minors, they had to agree with the CPSC for a certain minimal amount of labeling and marking of the motors and instruction sheets that came with them. By doing this, Estes received an EXEMPTION from the CPSC for having to undergo the FULL labeling and marking requirements that flammable substances would normally would be required.
The FHSA details these minmal labeling and marking requirements verus the full requirements.
Its that simple. Its for Retail Sales to minors.
shockie B)
wrote:

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I agree!
Shocking.
Jerry

So much for restraining orders.
I do believe violation of CPSC is a "crime".

They list their approved dealers on their website.
Fortunately for them this is a "non-enforcement zone".

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Jerry Irvine, Box 1242, Claremont, California 91711 USA
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And they also can't be put on retail store shelves either , even if sold only to adults.
They must be kept away from the public access.
their is a bit of history you are not up to speed on ;-)
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enlighten me on the history please?
shockie B)

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almax: AT/RCS RMS reloads in the BCDEFG levels do not conform to the CPSC regulations for model rocket motors, but they are sold legally, (supposed to be behind the counter or sold only to adults). I have a copy of the 1993 CPSC letter to AT/RCS which lifted that injunction against them selling the RMS because they had metallic casings and obviously didn't comply to the model rocket regs as far as construction was concerned or total impulse(in the case of the G) was concerned.
The CPSC issued an enforcement injunction against AT/RCS selling RMS or G. Why? Because of the metallic cases and the total impulse of G motors. AT/RCS tried to get the CPSC to amend 1500.85. The CPSC refused to amend 1500.85. But CPSC did allow and continues to allow AT/RCS to sell AP BCDEFG motors to the adult public.
from this letter:
"Aerotech has indicated that it intends to market these motors to individuals who are 18 years of age or older(only), thus removing them (the motors in question) from the purview of the (CPSC) FHSA's banning provisions. "
The letter also states it is the responsibility of AT/RCS to ensure that these model rocket motors are only sold to adults . SO AT/RCS dealers control access to these motors . SO yes they may not be on the retail shelves, but they can be behind the store shelves or they cna be placed in a locked display case, which is the way I normally see them. I have also seen G class SU motors openly out on retail shelves in some hobby stores down thru the years.
shockie B)

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CPSC regulates what can be sold to minors. That's why G motors are labeled as restricted to those 18 and over. CPSC never changed their definition to include G motors back in 1985.
The BATFE wants those same limits to apply to adults :-(
    Bob Kaplow    NAR # 18L    TRA # "Impeach the TRA BoD"         >>> To reply, remove the TRABoD! <<< Kaplow Klips & Baffle:    http://nira-rocketry.org/LeadingEdge/Phantom4000.pdf www.encompasserve.org/~kaplow_r/ www.nira-rocketry.org www.nar.org
Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it with religious conviction. -- Blaise Pascal
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Bob Kaplow wrote:

As an interesting side note to this whole discussion, I went to the CPSC website to try and find some information.
Imagine my surprise when they indicate that they do NOT have authority over alcohol, tobacco, and firearms (among other things), as there are other government agencies that handle those sorts of things. So, since motors are none of these, they feel compelled to regulate them, but then the BATFE also does so (even though they are not A,T, or F), and we end up with double regulation!!!
David Erbas-White
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the CPSC only has jurisdiction as far as interstate sales of model rocket motors to minors under age 18. Thats where it begins and ends...
shockie B)

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The CPSC can ban anything they wish with a stroke of the pen as a haz substance.
they really were ready to shut down AP hobby motors at one time, and the 62.5 concession was given to them to simmer down now.
compromise makes the world go round.
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The model rocket limit at the time was either 113g or 125g.
--
Jerry Irvine, Box 1242, Claremont, California 91711 USA
Opinion, the whole thing. <mail to: snipped-for-privacy@gte.net>
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almax:
enough with the crptic remarks, tell us what you know to fill in the blanks.
I think BAN with the stroke of a pen is to much... don't they deal with injunctions and such? which at least leaves the BANEE with recourse? Sorta like what happened with RMS in the early 90's?
shockie B)

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Jerry Irvine wrote:

I just checked the Report On Proposals (ROP) and Report On Comments (ROC) documents for the 2002 revision cycle on the NFPA web site. From those documents it appears that the 62.5 gram restriction was already in the 1998 edition of the code. The ROP and ROC documents for that revision cycle are not available online.
I don't have a copy of the 1998 edition. I purchased copies of the 2002 editions of NFPA 1122 and 1127 and I have a copy of the TRA safety code which is the 1995 edition (the first I think) of NFPA 1127. The 1995 version from TRA doesn't have the 62.5 gram limit.
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David W. Schultz
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It's been around a lot longer than that.

The safe distance for H hasn't been 50' since the original interim / draft NFPA 1127. And their reason for changing it from 50' to 100' was nothing more than the reason that the BATFE uses to decide what's onthe explosives list. They made it up.
    Bob Kaplow    NAR # 18L    TRA # "Impeach the TRA BoD"         >>> To reply, remove the TRABoD! <<< Kaplow Klips & Baffle:    http://nira-rocketry.org/LeadingEdge/Phantom4000.pdf www.encompasserve.org/~kaplow_r/ www.nira-rocketry.org www.nar.org
We need to ensure that actions by our government uphold the principles of a democratic society, accountable government and international law, and that all decisions are taken in a manner consistent with the Constitution.
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get your level 1 and there will be no line :)
--
Tater
President of MARS Club (NAR #660)
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NO. The line remains if you are launching at a site that has a Model Rocket limit in the land use and/or fire authority permit.
F101 motors are not model rocket motors. More than 80 Newtons of average thrust.
That is why FSI renamed their F100 as the F80 near the end of their existence. They never were 80 or 100 Newtons of average thrust, but they thought it sounded "cool" and "marketable". At some point the legality of shipping or certifying them came up and they changed them.
-Fred Shecter NAR 20117
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david: it looks like you didn't get any clear answers so I will try:
from the NAR MR Safety Code:
Size. My model rocket will not .... contain more than 125 grams (4.4 ounces) of propellant or 320 N-sec (71.9 pound-seconds) of total impulse.
IF your model rocket has >113 g of propellant it becomes a LARGE MR and FAA notice is required.
http://www.nar.org/NARmrsc.html
TRA:
The TRA Safet Code is NFPA 1127 .It has nothing to do with model rocketry so they have no line
NFPA 1122: 4.5 Model Rocket Power Limits. A model rocket's installed motor(s) shall produce a total impulse of no more than 320 N-s (72 lb-s).
4.8.2 Type G motors with an installed total impulse of more than 80 N-s(18 lb-s), but not more than 160 N-s (36 lb-s), shall be permitted to be used by individuals 18 years old and older.
NFPA 1125:
3.3.26.4 Model Rocket Motor. A model rocket motor that has a total impulse of no greater than 160 N-sec, an average thrust of no greater than 80 N, and a propellant weight of no greater than 2.5 g (2.2 oz).
CSPC:
(ii) Contain no more than 62.5 grams (2.2 ounces) of propellant material and produce less than 80 newton-seconds (17.92 pound seconds) of total impulse with thrust duration not less than 0.050 second.
CSFM:
12520. Model rocket engine
"Model rocket engine" means a commercially manufactured, non-reusable rocket propulsion device which is constructed of a nonmetallic casing and solid propellant, wherein all of the ingredients are self-contained so as not to require mixing or handling by the user and which have design and construction characteristics determined by the State Fire Marshal to provide a reasonable degree of safety to the user.
12565. Classification as model rocket engines
All fireworks or toy propellent devices containing pyrotechnic compositions examined by the State Fire Marshal and found by him to come within the definition of "model rocket" or "model rocket engine" in Section 12519 or 12520, respectively, shall be classified as model rocket engines.
6) Model Rocket Motor. The same as a model rocket engine, as defined in Health and Safety Code Section 12520. Model rocket motors shall not produce more than 160 Newton-seconds of total impulse power.
Perhaps somebody can devise a table showing what is a MR according to whom?
HTH
shockie B)

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On Fri, 01 Jul 2005 18:18:42 GMT, "shockwaveriderz"

This is wrong. Since you are an expert, I will let you correct yourself.
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