[F-FT] Where is the line regarding G motors

And they also can't be put on retail store shelves either , even if sold only to adults.

They must be kept away from the public access.

their is a bit of history you are not up to speed on ;-)

The model rocket limit at the time was either 113g or 125g.

enlighten me on the history please?

shockie B)

almax:

enough with the crptic remarks, tell us what you know to fill in the blanks.

I think BAN with the stroke of a pen is to much... don't they deal with injunctions and such? which at least leaves the BANEE with recourse? Sorta like what happened with RMS in the early 90's?

shockie B)

thomas: responses inline....

shockie B)

Based on your posting of this from the NAR website:

4.. Launches models powered by rocket motors not classified as model

This seems to make the G33J,G75Jand G104T motors HPR motors, the G33J/G75 because they contain >62.5 and the G104 due to its >80 Ns Avg thrust. If that is the case, then in addition to be 18 you must be certed to L1 to fly these motors. Same thing with G Hybrids... Also who other than the NAR/TRA gave itself authority over Hybrids anyway?

It seems the NAR at least wants their to be only 2 forms of rocketry: model rocketry and high power rocketry with nothing inbetween. I think the NAR/TRA needs to take a real close look the concept of Large Model Rocketry, which would be model rocket motors >62.5

I guess the answer here is it depends. As far as do you need a leup for .62.5g. I would surmise NO, as NPRM is not law yet. And the court did seem to rule that SU of any size were considered PADS and therefore exempt.

Well thats the way it seems at present. I was not aware of the special case motors described above, or that the NAR has in its infinite wisdom, decided that only model rocket and high power rockets exist.

I guess they probably do this as a swipe towards JI who helped pushed through the Large Model Rocket category into the FAA... I don't think the NAR never has or does like the concept of Large/Adult only model rocket motors.

almax: AT/RCS RMS reloads in the BCDEFG levels do not conform to the CPSC regulations for model rocket motors, but they are sold legally, (supposed to be behind the counter or sold only to adults). I have a copy of the 1993 CPSC letter to AT/RCS which lifted that injunction against them selling the RMS because they had metallic casings and obviously didn't comply to the model rocket regs as far as construction was concerned or total impulse(in the case of the G) was concerned.

The CPSC issued an enforcement injunction against AT/RCS selling RMS or G. Why? Because of the metallic cases and the total impulse of G motors. AT/RCS tried to get the CPSC to amend 1500.85. The CPSC refused to amend

1500.85. But CPSC did allow and continues to allow AT/RCS to sell AP BCDEFG motors to the adult public.

from this letter:

"Aerotech has indicated that it intends to market these motors to individuals who are 18 years of age or older(only), thus removing them (the motors in question) from the purview of the (CPSC) FHSA's banning provisions. "

The letter also states it is the responsibility of AT/RCS to ensure that these model rocket motors are only sold to adults . SO AT/RCS dealers control access to these motors . SO yes they may not be on the retail shelves, but they can be behind the store shelves or they cna be placed in a locked display case, which is the way I normally see them. I have also seen G class SU motors openly out on retail shelves in some hobby stores down thru the years.

shockie B)

Not quite. Motors over 80n (as you mention) OR over 62.5g propellant are HPR motors, and require L1 certification for use. At least if you're flying with NAR or TRA or in an NFPA 1127 state. This would restrict the G33 and G75 among others.

Also debatable. The NAR/TRA lawsuit and the manufacturer say no. Some BATFE agents say no, some say yes. The PROPOSED, not yet implemented provisions of the recent NPRM would make this a yes, and actually go further, pending the outcome of the lawsuit.

There are several HPR motors you can fly without waiver or notification. F101, G33, G75, G125, H128, H238 and more have under 113g propellant, thus require nothing from the FAA if the rocket weight is under a pound. Those motors and the H180, H73, H123, H242, and more fall between 113 and 125g, and can be flown in rockets up to 1500g with notification only.

Note that there are several claims on this web site that are contrary to current law. As part of the law suit, the NAR requested an injunction against the BATFE to stop them from claiming requirements that are not law, and was refused. Which does NOT make their claims legal.

Bob Kaplow NAR # 18L TRA # "Impeach the TRA BoD" >>> To reply, remove the TRABoD!

NAR/TRA misformatted the question so the statement you just made is not accurate and would make a good pleading.

Nope.

Jerry

:)

comments inline

shockie B)

So are you agreeing or disagreeing that the NAR neglects Large Model Rocketry? and it is a good thing? Why can't they just come out and acknowledge the fact that there are 2 types of model rocketry: "traditional" model rocketry open to minors and adults; and "large/adult only" model rocketry?

I don't see how the NAR can classify certain FGH motors as HPR when indeede they are just noncomplying large model rockets? Which is how the CPSC sees them? Remember these FGH "gray area" motors are NOT HPR according to NFPA

1127. Nor are they covered by NFPA 1122. The NAr has never fully implemented Large Model Rockets into either of the NFPA codes.

We certainly don't need a thrid form or hobby rocketry to

But we have had a 3rd form of sport rocketry since when ? the late 80's? for Large Model Rockets per FAA. I think FAA trumps NFPA?

NFPA 1127 was clarified

So why can't sport rocketry be a continum from traditional model rocketry on the low end(for minors and adults), to adult model rocketry in the middle( remember this would be NO certs territotory, just FAA notification) to high power rocketry on the top? It makes perfect sense to me.

The NAR/TRA needs to get regulations that integrate large(adult) model rocketry into NFPA 1122/1127.

The reason they won't do it, is that large model rocketry in some cases crosses over into certified HPR activity. on the very low end. This very low end should not be HPR territory. HPR should be above the low end area. Hopefully the NAR/TRA will see the light and fully intergrate and implement Large Model Rocketry into both 1122/1127 on their next revisions.

Agree.

No.

They "could". They "don't"

They are imprefect. They do NOT know it. True ignorance. They have a duty of care to model rocketeers they have ignored.

Answer:

"I" proposed what is now known as LMR in CRm magazine.

I proposed LMR in correspondence to NAR.

NAR adopted 125g as the MR limit.

Yea!!

NAR worked excruciatingly hard to get 125g adopted by FAA and in a way failed resulting in the rediculous "notification requirements.

CPSC was also a "failure" but when CPSC stated their standards, NAR didn't do the right thing and say that applies to minors and "behind the counter transactions", but also to ADULTS. That was the single worst decision they have made in the last two decades as it resulted in further "codifying" 62.5g in NAR, NFPA and other places.

Weight limits.

VERY STRONGLY AGREE.

125g is THE limit.

1992 per NFPA IIRC.

That is what ATF exempt HPR should be too.

Behind the counter "sport rocketry".

Pure stupidity.

By cooperating to a limited degree, but not "fully" as needed to properly codify AND exempt ALL consumer rocketry.

Remember.

Exemptions, not regulations.

Jerry told you so.