How do we attract new flyers?

OK, I'm going to come in here, and be a bit on the heretical side.

About 4 years ago, I considered becoming a BAR. I got an Estes catalogue, I started looking in this group, I went on various websites, etc. And I found out several things:

1) The cost of model rocketry (1/2A - D), in real dollars, is quite a bit less than it was in the 1970's. 2) Many BAR's appear to want to duplicate the feeling of the financial burden of rocketry, and have gotten into high power rocketry, with big rockets and big prices. 3) The rocket clubs seem to be most interested in the big rockets. 4) Due to this, launches have to be at big parks in spots reserved well in advance, where, on the side, they launch some of the smaller rockets. 5) Due to this, newbies not wanting to start out on their own will often have to travel long distances to even observe a launch (for me, for example, there are 3 clubs about 50 miles from me, and no others, and I live in a very densely populated area (New Jersey, right across the river from New York City).

So, here's an idea: maybe clubs can have occasional small-rocket-only launches, in a greater variety of areas, so that young rocketeers can actually visit a launch without making their parents drive 100 miles.

Feel free to start throwing rocks.

Why throw rocks? You just described exactly what we do -- weather permitting, we have two launches every month. One low power only, held at some local soccer fields, with the blessings of the city whose facilities we use.

Our 2nd launch each month is high power, but we always have low power pads setup and typically have more low power flights than we do high power. Once launch a year, we have a large contingent of Cub Scouts that comes out to launch their rockets and watch us fly ours. For many of us, that's our favorite launch of the year.

-Kevin

Naw, they just want more bang for the buck. APCP motors are cheaper per newton-second than Estes BP motors.

"Clubs" aren't interested in anything. A club is just an organizational structure. The _people_ within the club are most likely interested in both modrocs and high power.

The reason you can't find a closer place to fly rockets is precisely _because_ you live in a densely populated area. Try getting a launch site yourself, just for modrocs, and you'll find out why the clubs launch so far away. Local regs make it difficult (usually impossible) to fly modrocs in town.

Thanks! Do I have to throw them at you, or can pick another target? :)

I'm no economist but that seems feasible.

Myopic. (I'll expound after #5.)

Ditto aforementioned parenthetical statement.

Ditto ditto.

Bart, METRA's site is about 60 mi from Union, NJ. Yeah, it's a BIG sod farm but we have a LARGE contingent of model rocket ONLY flyers.1/4A-D. EVERY launch. Our 12 pad model rocket launcher rarely has less than 8 rockets on it most of the day. That's while we fly everything else. Our model rocket flyers are every bit of the core of METRA as the high power people. I'll go one step better by saying that our MR flyers are also an active part of the membership in the club's goings-on.

We also have a large bevy of children from 2 to 10 who also come out to fly - or watch mom and dad fly - their model rockets.

It may seem like a long distance to drive but I can tell you - as someone who lives on the other side of the Hudson - it ain't as bad as a traffic jam on the Cross Bronx at 5AM on a Saturday morning.

It's tough to secure any type of site where we are (within a 15 mi radius of Manhattan) as all types of mod rocs are illegal in NYC and may very well be in Metro NJ also. Even if they aren't, parks depts in those areas have strict restrictions if not out-and-out prohibitions on model rockets. One more degree of separation away is that model rocket-friendly parks also have trees which make no bones about their ravenous appetites for rockets, large or small.

Consider it thrown wadding :-)>

P.S. Come out to METRA's launch July 17-18 or August 7-8 and fly as my guest. Gratis.

Bart, consider going to METRA's sod farm launch. I've flown several times times there (even though I live in Wash DC) & it's a great field. Not to mention, the hilarious Gene Costanza makes it worth the drive all by itself.

I'd have to disagree with that.

-- Richard "MIGHT show up this weekend at METRA's launch, pending weather, juggling a couple appointments, & whether I can impose on friends for free room (& possibly board)" Hickok

This one is easy to check. According to Department of Labor statistics $1.00 in 1975 was worth about $4.26 in 2004 dollars so that's an increase of 426%.

The retail cost of A8-3 motors went from $1.35 in 1975 to $6.59 in

2004, an increase of 488%.

The retail cost of B6-4 motors went from $1.45 in 1975 to $7.09 in

2004, an increase of 488%.

The retail cost of C6-5 motors went from $1.65 in 1975 to $7.79 in

2004, an increase of 472%.

The retail cost of D12-5 motors went from $2.75 in 1975 to $11.49 in

2004, an increase of 417%.

So it looks like the D motors are slightly less expensive in real dollars but none of the others are.

Mario Perdue NAR #22012 Sr. L2 for email drop the planet

"X-ray-Delta-One, this is Mission Control, two-one-five-six, transmission concluded."

Oops, sorry. I looked in the wrong column. The 1975 dollar value is actually $3.51 in 2004 dollars. so the figures do show a decrease overall.

MP

Mario Perdue NAR #22012 Sr. L2 for email drop the planet

"X-ray-Delta-One, this is Mission Control, two-one-five-six, transmission concluded."

Mario Perdue NAR #22012 Sr. L2 for email drop the planet

"X-ray-Delta-One, this is Mission Control, two-one-five-six, transmission concluded."

Dang, Mario, you've got me completely confused now.

Let's go thru the numbers again.

Yes, I agree. (I looked it up.) 351%

So, yes, the motor prices have gone up faster than inflation. Looking back further, to 1969, here's what I came up with:

The 1969 dollar would be worth $5.15. (ie, 515%)

A8-3: $0.80/1969 $6.59/2004 823% B6-4: $0.90/1969 $7.09/2004 787% C6-5: $0.95/1969 $7.79/2004 820%

So it looks even worse using these numbers. OTOH, I think cars have gone up even more than that !

I'm not complaining about the motor prices, just observing. I'd guess the key factors are less competition (for BP A-D) and higher insurance costs.

My 2 cents. FWIW. YMMV.

Doug

Yeah, me too!

BTW, the price of motors and other rocketry supplies don't bother me either.

Mario Perdue NAR #22012 Sr. L2 for email drop the planet

"X-ray-Delta-One, this is Mission Control, two-one-five-six, transmission concluded."

aint it great? an as full time jobs as adults we get bigger allowances!

Not always, but I will conced your point that when your 6ft tall that you roughly need to double the size of your rokets for them to be at a scale similar to when you was young.

well not so! But I suppose it deppends club to club. we (try) to have

3 launches a month of low power stuff, and then 1 launch at the HPR field. our range store is stocked with low power engines and kits, most at a discount.

I've seen this, and understand what you are saying. part of the reasoning for that is that a club tends to have more power to get a large field, so the club tends to use it as often as possible

Dude, go to

and in their publications section read the guide to aerospace clubs

or go here

You sound like an interested, devoted, motivated canidate for starting a rocket club. admittedly, the publication is a bit dated, but it gives you a great backbone to model and work off of

No need to start throwing rocks, I just encourage you to form a club. get 2 of your buddies together with you and launch a couple of a-b sized rockets at the park. tell yoru buddies abotu how there is noplace nearby for the younger ones to get help in this sport, and you should have them half won over.

You just started the club :)

Email me. I will really try to help

Surely you have to factor in average disposable income too? That must have an effect on how expensive stuff _feels_?

This a facttaly true arguement, Ray, but it doesn't address what Chuck was getting at. As a real life example; My son has flown big rockets with me for years. I didn't go to a launch without him until just a year ago. He and I would build the rockets together, some were his, some were mine. He took great pride in seeing "his" Mini Magg rip off the pad on an H123, and he got a tear in his eye when it slammed into the turf because I forgot the ejection charge. He danced the high anxiety dance beside me when I got my L2 cert in the same rocket, stretched a bit.

Then, the summer of his 18th birthday, we were at Fire in the Sky II, and he said, "Hey, I can fly my Mini Magg on a big motor now." I told him he'd hafta join NAR to get the cert and he said, "cool." He was again really proud when he launched that rocket on an I284 (the biggest level one motor we could find) and had some adult friends sign his temp. card. He even shows off his real cert card to his friends. So the cert does mean something.

That said, I would support a junior cert initative. That would open up an avenue for teens that wanted to have a card in their name, but it wouldn't dissallow what Eric and I did for many years either. Just because there is a junior cert system doesn't mean dads and kids can't build and fly a rocket together, and put both their names on the card like a group project.

steve

Hey Bart, We did just that here in Seattle last weekend. Our big field was under repair, so the boys sponsored a launch down at the park that allows rockets. They had a blast! Over 100 rockets launched, A-G, in a park like setting. I agree with your idea, whole heartedly.

steve

getting at. As

together, some

L2 cert in

said, "Hey, I

get the cert

Eric and I

the card like

Well put Steve, thank you. You understand the kids a bit, which is what I was trying to express.

Chuck

Watch for Zach's L1 Cert / 18th birthday in Aug. He built a PML AAMRAN-3 for it. It's red & I flew the rocket he build for it at LDRS with an H something or other. If you watch South Park, you might recognise the name - Red Rocket Red Rocket.

One question to ask is, were there deep discounts available in 1975?

We're comparing list-price to list-price, but I'm certainly not paying $7.79 for a three-pack of C6-5's. I'm paying under $5 at Wal-Mart. If I want D's and E's at a discount, I can get them for $8.19 plus shipping by mail-order.

That $1.65 is $5.79 in 2004 dollars. So if there was no significant discounting in 1975, the real to-the-consumer cost of motors has decreased slightly. And in 1975, I bet you couldn't find motors at 35% off at a local retailer. And the mail-order resources we have in this age of the Internet are overwhelming compared to mail-order in 1975.

Just food for thought, but it'd be interesting to see what the street prices for motors were in 1975. I won't be so naive as to say nobody discounted hobby items like model rockets in 1975, but I'm willing to bet that discounts weren't as deep and wide-spread as they are today's world of "sell it to me at a discount or I'll go somewhere else."

-- Carl D Cravens ( snipped-for-privacy@phoenyx.net) Wichita, Kansas, US -- Read my model rocketry journal at

I would be willing to organize a low power launch for Cub Scouts and schools at a local field, but I think there may be some resistance due to Legal or insurance concerns.

Can "we" come up with a "how to organize a launch" addressing some of those concerns and an outline of the procedures for running a launch.

It might be helpful..... my 2 cents.

Rich Kroboth TRA#4148 Webmaster Metropolitan Rocketry Association (METRA) Northern New Jersey Prefect #94

Good point.

In 1971-1973 I was working for Toys 'R' Us while they were still called Bargain Town. When I was there we didn't have Estes but they had Vashon and Cox and perhaps MPC. Almost across the board everything was 28% off list. They even took Hasbro to court and won over their "fair trade" price fixing on GI Joe products which we didn't have until the end of my time there.

It was the only non-IT job I ever had.

Bob Kaplow NAR # 18L TRA # "Impeach the TRA BoD" >>> To reply, remove the TRABoD!