How do we attract new flyers?

Precisely.

-dave w

They ABSOLUTELY allow purchase/use with ANY adult suoervision whatsoever.

Do ANY adults attend the launches you do?

Jerry

This should be in the FAQ.

That's a truly stupid rule.

The "street price" is a good thing to consider. When I started, I could get (mostly) Estes products from my local hobby store at 20% off. I could also get discounts on larger orders and free product premiums direct from Estes Ind. There were some early discount suppliers like AAA Fuels, and Bellville Hobby, and even some of the mail order model airplane suppliers.

One of the things that Estes has done is changed their distribution system to include more middle men with higher final markups, which means list prices are higher and bigger discounts are possible. I think Estes early philosophy was to sell the motors cheap and make the real money on kits, and I suspect that is no longer true. The biggest factor is probably competition. Estes now has a near monopoly on BP motors. Yes Quest motors are available, but not where I live. It is really strange to see Quest kits, but no Quest motors. Estes can simply charge whatever the market will bear.

I think closer look at the CPI would be more interesting. In particular we need to look at the disposable income of kids, 12-16, and perhaps the minimum wage, rather than the aggregate CPI. I think Estes motors are relatively much more expensive for kids.

Alan

But it's not encouraging them as much as it easily could.

Of course it is. It's recognition that the person has accomplished a fairly difficult technical goal. For a kid, it's public proof that they can do something just as well as an adult. Just like a Scout proficiency badge.

Speaking as someone who has had a child go thru junior certification, it's made a tremendous difference in his self-confidence, provided him with added incentive to do well in science and math. How well? He's in the top three in those courses at his grade level.

Imagine the boost that little card gives - it proves to my son's teacher (doing the estes rocket module in S&T) that not only did my son know what he was talking about, he really should be teaching the module.

We did little more than just mention the possibility of junior HPR certification, and on his own, at age 12, he started staying up late studying for the test.

I will never forget the look on his face when the adult L2s and L3s he's looked up to for years gave him a standing ovation passing his test and a perfect L1 cert flight.

I credit his certifications as being a significant contribution to how well he's doing at school. Especially when he blurted out not so long ago "now I know what this school stuff is used for!".

Because without that cert they don't have ownership of their own accomplishments. It means that they're recognized for _leading_ the effort, not just tagging along for the ride.

Some kids can do without it. But public recognition of that accomplishment can only make the experience more rewarding. And be more likely at keeping them in the hobby.

Hobby shop owners take note: my son has spent more on HPR than I have (despite me being a L3).

Heck, he's the TRA member (and CAR). I'm only CAR.

Pure nonsense. With the cert program now, what's stopping adults getting others to sign off for them? _Nothing_. No different for a junior cert program. How many adults would bother if they couldn't get recognized for doing it? Not many.

A Junior cert programme has no disadvantage, legally or otherwise, and lots of upside.

Oh you have to come around now, Ray. He used the extra e's and everything!!

(nice rebuttal, Chris. We'll tag team him until he submits)

:>) steve

Fine, you want a merit badge for the kiddies who need that sort of thing, go ahead and create one. But don't call it certification. Call it a "Junior Achievement Program" or something like that.

Certs are _permits_, nothing more. Let's keep them that way.

According to RayDunakin :

If they're just "permits", why are lots of people putting them in their Usenet sigs, launch badges, and registrations? It's not as if the "permit" aspect of it extends anywhere beyond actually buying a motor, or presenting a cert card with your flight card at the field...

If it was _just_ a permit, the only time you'd ever see someone's level would be in a hobby shop or past the flight line with flight card in hand.

I don't see people pinning their driver's licenses to their chests or hats or Usenet signatures. Do you?

It's clear that it represents a lot more than just a permit no matter how much some old farts (of which I classify as one) may claim otherwise.

And by the way, we _did_ create a "Junior Achievement Programme".

It's called "CAR Junior Certification".

You don't want to be thought of as being _behind_ us, do you?

It's not as if a hobby shop is incapable of checking the age or noticing that the cert card says "JUNIOR" in capital letters.

Some of TRA's other rules seem equally ridiculous.

At age 14, my son was acting as assistant pad manager at HPR launches - out on the field helping people get their rockets ready on the pads. Often by himself (ie: to reset glitched launch controllers).

Under supervision? Of course[1] - just like everyone else on the field. The RSO/LCO have a _responsibility_ for range safety, no matter how old the people on the field are.

He was an integral part of the launches. He was part of it, not just a visitor who wasn't allowed to touch anything.

He would be removed from TRA.

For what? Violating a safety rule? ROTFLMAO!

Bob Kaplow NAR # 18L TRA # "Impeach the TRA BoD" >>> To reply, remove the TRABoD!

According to Bob Kaplow :

I'm not going to touch that one with a 40' barge pole.

According to RayDunakin :

Yeah, but having four cert levels is _fun_.

Not so.

It's more like getting an A in school, but only being given a C on your report card because you're "too young to get a mark that high".

Not having junior cert stifles incentive and creativity for those who need it most.

Cert programmes challenge the kids to do better. Don't ignore/minimize their achievements.

Right... It just cheapens and weakens the institution of certification between an adult and his motors. Not that there is anything wrong with that. ;)

Alan

Have model rocket contests where they can win the R/C cars they'd rather be playing with.

I love the hobby, but I don't think it is keeping pace with the alternatives. Sure we can sell ourselves on the coolness of toilet paper tubes, balsa, and a motor than runs for a second and a half. But, I don't think the kids are buying it. Would they rather fly a rocket for a minute or an R/C car for twenty minutes?

Rocket design software, oriented towards their age group, so that they could order custom made kits based on their designs, might get the interest some of them. Who know what they would dream up?

Better quality, durability and more advance materials, along with some sophisticated RTF projects beyond string triggered cameras might be the answer.

Hats off to the manufacturers and vendors that ARE advancing the hobby out of the fifties.

:)

Jerry

Why not? How about, so they won't grow up to be as shallow as some current adults?

Better yet, just eliminate that rule which was imposed by one local club.

YOU are sooooo judgemental.

Emphasis on MENTAL.

Jerry

According to RayDunakin :

Only in the sense of "internal club rules" and voluntary vendor requirements. They have no legal force.

Why is that so important to you?

-dave w