As do certain TRA BOD members. makes it convenient when you want to kick out someone you don't like...
As is TRA...
Bob Kaplow NAR # 18L TRA # "Impeach the TRA BoD" >>> To reply, remove the TRABoD!
TRA insurance fraud goes way back before this incident. Back when I was a member of T13, they got access to one local county forest preserve as a launch site. To do so they needed insurance. SO they formed an NAR section within T13. This was before TRA had any insurance at all, and before NAR adopted or covered HPR. They fraudulently passed off their NAR insurance as covering their HPR activities. And not just HPR, but EX before TRA allowed EX. And not even close to safety code compliant. Like launching a home made K motor 30' from a road with cars travelling by at 50 mph, totally unaware of what was just behind that bush.
And who was in charge of this launch. TRA BOD member and T13 prefect Dennis Wacker.
Bob Kaplow NAR # 18L TRA # "Impeach the TRA BoD" >>> To reply, remove the TRABoD!
Ok, so we have a reseller. What documentation 'should' be required for certification and in who's name? Do we even care about the reseller? Should Ellis had to of obtained new EX numbers (and such) just to manufacture 'the same formula' for Aerotech (and in no way meant to bash either manufacturer)?
As a consumer, the only thing I get from the """certification process""" is some level of assurance that a G64 is just that. I'm sure we can all agree that it does not guarantee that that will be the case (bad batches, wrong delay,.. etc..). So the first level of testing that I would expect from a certification of a commercial motor is testing. Prior to J350s, I would have been happy with demonstration of the manufacturing process to cover that certification and a testing of few motors. Now what happens if a manufacturer changes location, changes suppliers, has equipment failure? Unless costly batch testing is performed, how do we know that even commercial motors are what they say they are? Did they dump 10 scoops of AP in the hopper or 11? Were the scoops completely full? Did the mixer run for only 5 minutes instead of 6?
As for NFPAs, if the state that the manufacturer is in has not adopted the NFPA for manufacturing, why would the manufacturer need to show compliance? The motors used in the other states only have to function, not be manufactured. If the manufacturer is in a state under the NFPA, then they have to meet those requirements as a business. If they aren't, the state needs to be notified and take care of it's issues.
Take that one step further. What if I resell motors I buy from China? I'm sure someone has looked into that. NFPA nor LEMP would apply, right? The reseller would only have to be tagged as a importer. Yet the motors could not be certified because no one has an LEMP? An importer liscense would say nothing of the manufacturing facility. Isn't it China's job to ensure the manufacturer is following it's guidelines (which is probably none)?
Joel. phx
Hey, who's in HongKong? Know any APCP manufacturers? Visions of K motors for a buck fifty....
I could almost buy the "ramping up" argument prior to Cato's tenure at TMT. But having the TRA president lie to the NAR that a bunch of motors were tested by TRA when they never were is not a "ramping up" issue. It's a "Chuck Rogers is a liar" issue.
And what happened between 1994 and 1997 is not a ramping up issue. For the record, one of the things that Tom Blazanin did is take any tests that were done by John Cato, of say a **SINGLE** M1939-XL, and fraudulently grant certification to EVERY M1939, regardless of delay. Tom fraudulently extended TMT certification based on Johns testing to motors that John never tested.
***>>>THAT To reply, remove the TRABoD!
I just posted on this subject. Have them made in China. I don't think you could get them certified because none of the ""required"" paperwork would exist.
Joel. phx
Yeah, I had posted asking if anyone had a list of TMT members. It's hard to tell who's talking about who when they say 'the chair between person x and y'...
Chuck, Cato, Sue..?
Well, if you're gonna 'certify' a motor I would at least expect to see the data. As I said in a recent post, the paperwork that stops some people wouldn't be needed if the motors were made out of country, so why is it required in country. As a consumer all I really care about is functionality. Problem is how to you ensure consistency other than batch testing? If the manufacturer posts batch test results, who cares the motor was certified or not? If you get 5 motors with 10 second delays that were 2 seconds, who cares that the motor WAS certified? You're still out a rocket or 5.
No, it effects those just joining because TRA associates itself with HPR on it's application. So no, it doesn't just effect the 'foolish'.
Joel. phx
I got ALL the data from the CATO era at TMT. Somewhere along the line someone screwed up the data for the G75 and H128. Those of you who were around back then remember TRA TMT saying that the G75 was actually an H and usable for L1 cert, but the H128 was actually a G and not usable for L1. I think there's still some reference on the TMT pages about this condition. Of course any one who knows BJ from WL knows this just isn't possible.
Well, when Sue's group finally did the retesting, they uncovered the error and corrected it. They had just started the retesting, and hadn't crunched the data to average out all the tests for each motor type. Someone sent me the raw data so I could crunch out the averages, and update my waiver tables. That was the extent of the "leak". S/he had no idea that the file names included in what s/he sent me would show that only 26 (note, yesterday I think I misquoted this as 17) tests were done in the 3 year gap.
So everyone else with average or better intelligence can reach the same conclusion I did back in the summer of 1997, I've posted the DAP data file from when John Cato was TMT chair in June 1994, and the data file sent to me by someone from TMT in 1997 of the Aerotech retests. They can be found at:
Proof positive of a smoking gun at TRA TMT.
Bob Kaplow NAR # 18L TRA # "Impeach the TRA BoD" >>> To reply, remove the TRABoD!
The only possible resolution is to accept that it's history and get on with the future. Unfortunately it's much easier for some to point fingers and make scapegoats.
If you are referring to the motor cert (non-)issue, most of the "parties involved" are no longer involved.
I made reference to a document showing the source of ONGOING certification irregularities in favor of particular vendors and here it is.
According to TRA they would not accept my DOT papers once because the site where the licensed propellant was made was different than the house the original DOT papers were mailed to, ignoring that even then the propellant as DOT approved was made a state away in KY (not OH).
TRA then allowed the same NV AT EX numbers to be used by AT at Ellis in TX LESS THAN A YEAR LATER. Andnow they allow UT AT tomakemotors that are certified with NV AT EX numbers. It is a clusterfuck.
Breach ofcontract.
You could legally sell them in TRU but not fly them at a NAR/TRA launch :)
Jerry
Working on it but is is alot of trouble to go through knowing that once approved both NAR and TRA will just add an arbitrary rule to kill it.
Manufacturer 2 for 1 warranty.
Jerry
These are accusations, not facts. They are merely the rantings of a disgruntled nutjob who thinks that he alone can determine what is and isn't legal (or insured, despite his admission that he is not privy to TRA's insurance details).
More importantly, how is it relevant to rehash these ancient allegations, when all I did was ask you a simple question about your support for both Cato and Wickman? The two seem to be polar opposites. One man believes EX is legal, sells EX supplies, holds EX launches, and encourages people everywhere to engage in EX. The other believes all EX is illegal (as well as all high power) and demands that all EX and high power activities be ceased immediately.
The only thing these two men whom you so ardently support have in common is their hatred of TRA and their habit of making TRA the scapegoat.
Everyone already knows their position: "TRA is the source of all evil." They'll never be satisfied by anything less than the TRA BOD's heads on pikes, and even that might not be good enough.
How so, since motor certs are a self-imposed requirement of a private organization? And do you really expect the hobby to go from no certs needed, to certs needed, all in an instant using volunteers and limited funds, with no disruption to the hobby? Should they have shut down the hobby, forced the vendors out of business, etc during the years it took to get motor certification up to speed?
NOTE: Again, this is all just SPECULATION on my part. It is purely hypothetical.
Dave W. wrote:
Iz wrote:
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