First of all, it's LE*D*P for dealers. Second, there's plenty of dealers who sell unregulated or easy access motors who do NOT have a permit, and will not get one. Not to mention the distributor that the local hobby shops buy their stuff from. This new law will limit them to 25# of APCP. As little as
206 AT Econojet SU motors puts you over this limit.
I totaled up my current stash. I'm under 25#, but not by much. The box I expect on my front porch before NARAM will probably put me over.
Bob Kaplow NAR # 18L TRA # "Impeach the TRA BoD" >>> To reply, remove the TRABoD!
Good question! It is, however, even more common for commercial entities to try to keep a low profile on the regulatory front that it is for individuals. Running a business is hard enough by itself without becoming a target. The past LEUP "requirements" by NAR and TRA and various manufacturers seem to me more like they were initially a CYA approach. In effect, however, they ceded liberty with no real increase in security.
An agent can be both mis-informed AND perform illegal acts. It can even be "official policy" and still be illegal. A couple of years ago the Denver police department was found conducting illegal surveilance on political groups *that wanted more oversight of the police department!*. The department had gotten in trouble for illegal surveilance before, by the way.
Agents can bluff, too. Can anyone say with a straight face that IRS agents have never overstepped their authority or have always given courteous and correct service and information to the public? For the record, BATFE was part of the IRS at one time.
So...I say again - does anyone know of an actual criminal prosecution involving APCP?. I think it could be quite enlightening to see the public documents in a case where ATF has asserted that the APCP in a rocket motor is an explosive. Failing that, does anyone know of an arrest that was not prosecuted?
Bob, You need to read the bill a little more closely. Or read RMR more (Wait a minute, can that be a good thing?) as this subject has been beat to death before.
The 25 pound limit applies only to regulated motors which are only those over 0.9 pounds propellant weight. Any motor with less than 0.9 pounds propellant is completely and totally exempt from ATF regulation with a few exceptions dealing with criminal activities like arson and such.
Your stash is safe from this bill.
Bob Kaplow wrote: > In article , "David" writes: >
Yea, it's great, if there's any place for them to buy APCP motors after it becomes law. If you kill the distribution channels, how do you and I get the motors? Drive to UT every time we want a pack of F21-4s?
Ever see Amway's main warehouse? Or Avon? Or any of the other similar businesses. In my time at DEC, I ended up at both Amway (Ada, MI) and Avon (regional in the KC MO area). Massive warehouse, massive quantities of product, massive conveyor systems to pick the order, dump it into a box, and send it out. And UPS or whatever to get the merchandise to the rep on time. For every distribution system in the country, there's a massive stockpile of product somewhere, sometime. And HK724 will make what was once perfectly legal require an LEDP and every person with access to the warehouse will require extensive background checks, just like the current shipping problem.
ALL businesses that carry APCP are threatened by HK724, even those that don't sell ANYTHING HPR AT ALL. The example I keep using is Hobby Lobby. One case each of all the Econojet motor/delay combinations exceeds the 25# limit. While YOU may not have a case of each AT motor in your basement (I said YOU not ME), the distributors that supply the local hobby shops, and folks like Hobby Lobby most certainly do. These MODEL ROCKET dealers will now require an LEDP where they needed nothing in the past.
And it pretty much guarantees that we'll never see Apogee composite motors again, or any other small company doing custom motors like Tim did.
Bob Kaplow NAR # 18L TRA # "Impeach the TRA BoD" >>> To reply, remove the TRABoD!
I've read HK724. It doesn't say that. Sure, we might want to interpret it that way. But are you willing to bet your total net worth and your personal freedom for the next 20 years that the JBGTS *WILL* interpret it that way. I'm not.
And this bill does nothing to solve the problem for motors using propellants other than APCP. The pre-extes NCR motors were going to be something else. Cheapskate motors are not APCP. There are lots of motor formulas other the one used for several decades by AT et al. Which ones, or which additives to the standard mix will the JBGTs persecute next?
I can't wait for HK724 to become law so someone can start making and selling detonatable APCP. That's just what the world needs today.
Bob Kaplow NAR # 18L TRA # "Impeach the TRA BoD" >>> To reply, remove the TRABoD!
Or read what I posted on June 21. Copied for your convienience.
The current text marked up with the revisions per this bill.....
----------------------- Sec. 845. - Exceptions; relief from disabilities
(a)
Except in the case of subsections (l), (m), (n), or (o) of section 842 and subsections (d), (e), (f), (g), (h), and (i) of section 844 of this title, this chapter shall not apply to:
(1)
any aspect of the transportation of explosive materials via railroad, water, highway, or air which are regulated by the United States Department of Transportation and agencies thereof, and which pertain to safety;
(2)
the use of explosive materials in medicines and medicinal agents in the forms prescribed by the official United States Pharmacopeia, or the National Formulary;
(3)
the transportation, shipment, receipt, or importation of explosive materials for delivery to any agency of the United States or to any State or political subdivision thereof;
(4)
small arms ammunition and components thereof;
(5)
commercially manufactured black powder in quantities not to exceed fifty pounds, percussion caps, safety and pyrotechnic fuses, quills, quick and slow matches, and friction primers, intended to be used solely for sporting, recreational, or cultural purposes in antique firearms as defined in section 921(a)(16) of title 18 of the United States Code, or in antique devices as exempted from the term ''destructive device'' in section 921(a)(4) of title 18 of the United States Code;
(6)
the manufacture under the regulation of the military department of the United States of explosive materials for, or their distribution to or storage or possession by the military or naval services or other agencies of the United States; or to arsenals, navy yards, depots, or other establishments owned by, or operated by or on behalf of, the United States: and
(7) commercially manufactured black powder in quantities not to exceed 2 pounds, safety and pyrotechnic fuses, quick and slow matches, electric matches, igniters, or model rocket motors containing no more than .9 pounds of ammonium perchlorate composite propellant intended to be used in rockets that do not carry any? (A) explosive, incendiary, or poison gas; (B) bomb; (C) grenade; (D) explosive or incendiary charge of more than three-quarter ounce; (E) mine; or (F) device similar to any device referred to in subparagraphs (A) through (E).
----------------------------------- sections l, m, n, and o of 842 deal with plastic explosives taggants and marking. 844 deals with criminal acts. So if you use an APCP motor to set a building on fire, you are still in BIG trouble. :-)
But, this means that all of the items listed are completely and totally exempt from regulation by the BATFE. No storage requirements at all. Period. Just like the BP exemption.
OK, the storage language they added. Once again I have marked up the existing law.
------------------
18 USC 842 (j)
(1) It shall be unlawful for any person to store any explosive material in a manner not in conformity with regulations promulgated by the Secretary. In promulgating such regulations, the Secretary shall take into consideration the class, type, and quantity of explosive materials to be stored, as well as the standards of safety and security recognized in the explosives industry.
(2) Notwithstanding paragraph (1), a person who possesses ammonium perchlorate composite propellants for purposes of powering recreational model rockets may possess and store quantities not to exceed 25 pounds of such propellants.
------------------
OK, now remember, motors with less than 0.9 pounds of propellant are exempt from the entire chapter. Including 842(j). Therefore this is NOT speaking about those motors. This means that a permittee can legally store up to 25 pounds of REGULATED motors any way he likes.
Go over 25 pounds and you will need an approved magazine.
Seems pretty simple to me but I am not a lawyer. :-)
HK724 is inartfully drafted (to borrow a phrase) it should have exempted motors with "ammonium perchlorate composite propellant, black powder, or other similar low explosives" just like the proposed ATF exemption. But HK didn't ask for my opinion. I am still wondering where 0.9 pound came from.
The stars, my crystal ball, Tarot cards, goat entrails, tea leaves, etc. are silent on what the JBGT will do next. Perhaps because the JBGT's don't know either.
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