One good thing about assimilating other companies - my seniority date moves back in time and I get more vacation days etc. since I get credit for my Rockwell days.
Ben Dover is from the radio driving to or from work (or to or from launches on weekends).
At least I didn't mention Joe Crummey.
I don't understand. What would have been 'illegal' about them? Non-certified, perhaps, but (unfortunately) until the national organization actually non-certifies them, they're still proper to use, are they not?
David Erbas-White
He was indeed, but as you know he is a rules nazi. Had he not been directly lied to about the certification status of those motors by the President of Tripoli Rocketry Association,INC, he most certainly would not have. I know these two guys. Kaplow is anal and Rogers is evasive and fraudulant.
Perfect personality traits to be TRA President IMHO.
Jerry
They were listed as certified, just improperly listed (never tested). So Bob was clean and Rogers was dirtier than a pig in a shithole.
Jerry
Obviously not very well. But that raises a larger question of whether it's worth pursuing at all...
I thought I was pretty clear that "TRA/NRA has no authority, responsibility, or right to enforce ANY requirement (legal or otherwise) for which they cannot be held legally or financially accountable."
Obviously are refering to Jerry/USR. If he shipped illegally, that is an issue for the DOT, the carrier, and possibly the BATF/FBI. It is not an issue for TRA to adjudicate. TMT is a certification body, not an enforcement agency. That said, I ask you this: What happens to the motors when they are refused? I can answer that. They are returned through the same system through which they came. If the shipment was in violation of DOT regs, the refusal was as well.
It makes no sense. But since the TRA has decided that certified motors are not in the spirit of EX launches, I decided to let that ride. While I may or may not agree, I can understand their decision to draw a distinction between EX and certified and see little harm in it.
If the motor follows the same process, and produces the same product (and does not deviate from the design spec) I see no reason to quibble about the street address.
Obviously you cannot de-certify a motor that has not been certified. Therefore, #5 applies only to certified motors. If a motor has not been submitted, it cannot be certified. If it is not certified, it cannot be flown at a std launch.
IMHO, logging motor failures should be a function of the Range Safety Officer (or similar). At the very least, that falls squarely on the sholders of the Prefect/Section leader to see that it happens. If that were that case, there would have been submissions unless you were lucky #1.
[snip]
First. Yes, I am. I believe that I was explicitly clear on what TRA should enforce. That is: NOTHING for which they cannot be held legally or financially accountable. Frank Kosdon (or Jerry) making motors without a LEMP is an issue betwen Frank and the BATFE. The national orgs have no dog in that fight. And contrary to what has been put forth before, it it not illegal to receive goods that were manufactured illegally. It is illegal to receive goods that are prohibited, or which you are not legally permitted to posses. If TMT has teh neccessary authority to posses APCP, they are free and clear legally.
Second, not all sections reside in states that recognize 1125. Therefore, even if I believed that TRA should be involved in enforcement, who should they enforce it upon? Is my state an NFPA state? If not, should I have to comply with regulations that do not apply to me?
No, I'm saying that a dozen or more demos were flow outside the Ex days at LDRS 19. They were Kosdon skidmarks, Aerotech Greens, etc. And the crowd was brought to attention so Bruce, Gary, etc. could make a big spectacle of the affair. At least one Cato'd, and there was absolutely no misunderstanding amoungst anyone that these were uncertified motors. I'm sure that there are plenty of photos still online.
Why does that seem so unreasonable? If the purpose of certification is safety and reliability, and neither of these factors vary with age then why is age a criteria for certification?
No, but I will question the purpose of the activity. The motor has not changed. It is as safe on 01/01/04 as it was on 12/31/03. If safety and reliability is the purpose, 3yr certifications are not acoomplishing that. If safety and reliability are not the purpose, we should get that out on the table so the membership can understand what we are striving to achieve.
At least two. And if you take an ad-hoc poll of D-21 users and check this forum you will find that it is common knowledge that D-21's are prone to cato. In fact, I believe that AT even released a technical advisory that D-21's ignited with the enclosed copperhead were prone to cato as a result of the ignitor plugging the abnormally small throat. The point is that a motor with a known problem is still listed while a motor with no know problems is dropping off because of an arbitrary date. That certainly does not seem like the system is working as desired.
Then NAR would be guilty of that IIRC. As well as Trailing Edge Tech (Dead version).
IF.
That is done all the time by AT selling uncertified motors and testing uncertified motors.
Therefore according to you they are engaging in restraint of trade.
Agreed.
Or being decertified en masse for political reasons.
Jerry
I take the opposite oppinion...
Jerry-motors are certifiably safe, and certifiable as to truthfulness of manufacturer specifications. Have these facts ever been called into question? I have seen none such arguments.
So, it has been "x" years; the entities in question have no interest in certifying (or allowing on any basis) any Jerry-motors (and others). Setting the record straight, the entities in question continue in bad actions and policy to the long-term detriment of the hobby.
The larger problem is that you apparently do not care whether it is done right or wrong, only that the squeaky wheel is removed, when it is the mal-formed axle causing the bearing loss. So another wheel is put in place... until it also begins to sqeak, or fails.
The moral here?
The mentality of the "group" at large is that, "Resistance is futile."... with no comprehensive discernment or care of the truth or consequences, many which Jerry predicted, and have in part, alarmingly come to pass.
Jerry continues to voice why things must change, despite being ousted from organizations to which he has given (and continues to give) major contributions in time, talent, and resources.
He could have become a "McLaughlin", and cynically laugh with delight at any mention of the hobby getting chewed up. No, instead he champions the hobby, art, and craft of all things rocketry, and continues even now, to lobby for the most free expression of such.
Despite all he does to point out (repeatedly) the problems, having an attitude about it, and poignantly rebuffing the way of error in sometimes less than tactful ways, he contributes to, and supports several good aspects of those same groups, and the hobby as a whole. It is this message that I champion.
I for one hope that JI does not give in to such pressure to "conform" to bad policy, and continues to be a voice for the potential correction of bad policy.
If JI was in it strictly for personal gain, he would have certified and complied with the bad policy long ago.
If he was here only because he liked to spit in the face of his detractors, he would not be willing to put his money where his mouth is, nor would he spend such HUGE amounts of time and resources to back up his claims.
And I have yet to see the entities in question reply with little more response than diversion, or statements of "because we said so", after being shown that what they originaly based claims on has no legal basis, and at best is politically motivated "feel-good" policy, not good for the growth of the hobby, and in fact, in several respects restricts it in ways harmful to the hobby.
~ Duane Phillips.
Don't get the conclusion that Jerry and I are big buddies. Outside a few brief communications via email, a litany of messages that he has posted here, and a number posts complaining about his past business practices, I do not know Jerry from Adam. In fact, if Jerry approached me at a launch and said hello I would have no clue who I was speaking to unless he introduced himself. I just know that this situation reeks of impropriety and the leadership has consistently stonewalled anyone who has ever asked about it.
I did notice that someone asked in this thread and was referred to the TRA listserv to ask their question. I would speculate that TRA wants that discussion to be held off list because the inquisitor will either receive a non-responsive email, or they will be told that they have no need to know, or they will receive a disparaging report about Jerry that encourages them to trust the fact that he is an overall bad dude. In any case, I would strongly encourage them to re-post any response they do receive from TRA here to further shed light the matter.
manufacturer.
Was AT invested in Ellis at the time the motors were made? How about this "not directly involved in the specific operation". Did AT have an employee involved in the specific operation? I don't know, do you?
The COLOR of the liner changed and you think that requires a recert? What the heck is batch testing for? What about the second batch of liners off the line, does that cause a recert?
Joel. phx
Apogee motors (and PML and Rocketvision and Quest) are NAR certified. NAR doesn't have the requirement that the motor manufacturer be the company getting the certification. In fact IIRC George Gassaway once submitted some uncertified AT motors for certification.
The squeaky wheel didn't start squeaking till about 2 years after it was ripped off.
Thank you for all the wonderfully positive comments and thank you especially for paying attention.
One good person makes up for 200 evil ones.
Jerry
This should be in the FAQ.
Not quite sure what you mean or if you're referring to me. I just did a quick search on "jerry do you own us rockets" and that message popped up. If the guy has a legitimate beef, lets get to the bottom of it. But it would appear from deja searches there's more to it than 'everybody hates me', and based on responses to some recent messages of mine, I can understand why they don't want to deal with him. How about this. Post the paperwork, submit it to NAR and TRA and post all communication. Oh, and agree that TRA/NAR can release all communication as well.
There, simple. Let the lurkers decide where the BS lies.
Joel. phx
catalog was hastily
NOW who's got the insider information? ;)
Joel. phx
Jerry,
I agree. They will never implement that type of testing process. It would take away all the ambiguity in the process...
That said, it's time to turn the microphone to your side of the stage. You've said that you are willing to be or are presently being test case. For the record: Are you presently engaged in manufacturing APCP motors without posessing a LEMP or HEMP? If not, during what time were you engaged in manufacturing motors without a LEMP or HEMP?
Philip
Note: I would encourage Frank K or any other motor manufacturers who believe that a LEMP is not required to come foreward and take stand. Yes, I realize that that puts you in a precarious position that I am unwilling to take myself. However, if you are unwilling to take such a stand it will certainly affect my decision to be be on the forward front of this battle.
Oh you mean because they were not classified before they were released? Kinda left that out, eh?
So let's see. A company that releases unclassified product is rewarded by having its measley $50 certification fees paid by a NAR weenie (you)?
And ACS who actually had its reloads classified:
I got it now.
Can I have consumers pay my cert fees too?
Especially since they would not have $50 for several months.
Probably BECAUSE OF GARY.
Jerry
Per historical fact in both organizations, it was first initiated to validate the performance and safety of the motors.
If the motors are certified, and a certain number begin to be reported as not acting as advertised, then in theory the motors would be de-certified, until the manufacturer fixed the issue and re-certified.
Too simple though, eh? We need more rules...
Assuming the paper work is proper...
And, your statement is false, as the motors still are supposed to pass the tests; it is not merely a paperwork shuffle.
It is *exactly* what kinds of paperwork must be shuffled to complete certification that is the question (and statement) of the decade...
~ Duane Phillips.
"Motors are the life-blood of the hobby."
Both the material and color changed. The color differentiated the two.
Batch testing doesn't occur in practice. I have checked.
I understand that one of the early hybrid manufacturer's were a couple of guys in a university
- iz
David We> RayDunak>
Hmmm... you mean the stuff was still legally "new explosives" (per DOT def'n) that had yet to be "examined and classified" to know what hazmat class to ship them in? And their business plan was based on the expectation of going ahead and selling the stuff anyway?
Yeesh!
I mean Jerry has at least presented an actual DOT/BOE test report on propellant that he at least claims is representative of what was used in the "US Rockets" motors... Aerotech didn't even have that much in 1992/3, and they were trying to ship uncharacterized energetic materials anyway?
I mean, that's just plain dumb and sloppy, on several counts.
I wonder if this also was why the associations decided they wanted to worry about "legal shippability" and see evidence of DOT classification...
-dave w
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