NFPA 112? Questions

GFL.

Jerry

I think this cuts to the heart of the issue. Clarify, explain, and disclose. Work diligently to avoid even the appearance of impropriety and swiftly discharge any who fail to do so.

Right on. That is my point as well. I do not see how anyone who has no alterior motives can disagree with the fact that it is not the legitimate purpose of the national orgs to police the business of private businessmen.

PhilipD

ROFL.

"errortech"?

Jerry

George,

I gotta call bullshit here on two points.

First, having been in rocketry through most of the BATF battles (and then some), you know what kind of hell it can be to get a federal agency to definitively rule on anything. Much less do so in writing. And it is impossible when they are of the opinion that they you are in compliance and they have no need to issue any type of opinion.

Second, you are on the board at the NAR. How many times has the NAR issued requests NOT to contact one agency or another? Why were those requests issued? Because everyone knows that has any dealings with federal agencies knows it is always best to let sleeping dogs lie, ask forgiveness not permission, etc.

I'm not saying that this to validate Jerry's position in any way. He may completely be full of it. But his arguments on this subject are valid, and your attempts to rebuff them are completely out of line coming from someone like youself who is well versed about the political environment surrounding rocketry.

PhilipD

Jerry, I have to agree with George here. If you ever intend to resolve this matter to your benefit, you need to get real serious about clearing away the fog that surrounds USR/JI/ACS/DPTand the stack of motors in your warehouse. The trust, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth. Not what happened yesterday, last year, or last decade. The truth as it exists today, here, and now. Otherwise you will never garner more than trickle of support. You do realize that, do you not? If the event you do not, let me be very frank for just a moment:

I don't know you from Jack's housecat. I have no allegiance to you, nor to USR. Those of use here who ask very pointed questions about TRA testing procedures only do so out of a desire for honesty, integrity, and straight forward dealings within our organization. That and the self-serving desire to have as many motor manufacturers as possible is the only reason we give a damn about your motor ever getting certified. It's certainly not out of any heartfelt love for USR/JI. You just happen to be our current poster child on the guest for honest leadership. And if TRA/NAR does clean up the certification process you will be forgotten within days and your RMR threads won't get 4 responses much less 400.

Look, I could care less if your motors were manufactured by Kosdon, stored at ACS, packaged by Ellis, and labeled and re-sold by WalMart. But, I do want them to have a fair shake regardless of who turned on the mixmaster.

Right now, and for a very brief period, you have managed to re-kindle the embers of the TRA reformation fire. But the fuel that drives this fire is the unabashed truth. Without fuel, the fire will die one more time again. If you desire to do more with your business that occupy space on RMR archives, you need to re-read what I said at the top of this post very carefully: If you ever intend to resolve this matter to your benefit, you need to get real serious about clearing away the fog that surrounds USR/JI.

PhilipD

Also, why would anyone call the authorities on a shipper unless you intentionally wanted to get the shipper in trouble or the offense was so agregious as to warrant notification (shipping nuclear or biological items for example)? I mean, come on, a screwup on shipping a few reloads is not that big a deal. Wouldn't it have served the hobby better for TRA TMT to have called Jerry and discussed the issues with him. They could have shown him how much they know and help him fix any shipping issues he may have had. Why wake the DOT sleeping giant?

Bob

Stay focused on that then and make the playing field even somewhat more level and BOOM all will be well.

I will do what it takes to make it so on those rare occassions one of these discussions flashes a light bulb in my head, hey I should do that, I do. Usually the very next day.

When Fred Wallace "volunteered" to assist me with the DOT I was skeptical. When he alone offered to order motors on behalf of MDRA I was skeptical. So I made sure I had updated everything (renewed DOT shippers certification (address he refers to) and training, and latest copies of airbills and hazmat and such. But he cancelled the order and he will not even answer these basic questions (on the project he "volunteered" for):

Did you forward that fax I sent to you with an application for exemption to the DOT itself as you verbally told me on the phone?

If so on what date?

If so what was the title or scaope of the document?

If so, what was their reply to you if any? Fax? May I have a copy? Phone? Who? When?

Thank you.

Bracketing in the facts before we divert to conclusions.

Not in email, not on rmr. Not at all. Why?

And the cost to just do that minimal amount of prep for ONE consumer order? You guess.

I long for the day I drop below number 1 rmr poster.

Show me.

But NOT within TRA at all. It is critical to realize that. All the noise is insulated from TRA and its members almost in full.

Watch.

That's PRECISELY why TRA asked what they did. I know because I had this very conversation with Chuck Rogers. Remember I have known him since high school.

Anything you say can and will be used against you. By Chuck Rogers.

Well said. He might not be on the board at this moment. He might just be a groupie of the Board this year.

LOL.

~ Duane Phillips

I wonder how many members there are in TRA. There seems to be a lot of people here who claim that they are not TRA members. Could be a fairly large voting block.

BUT...I will say again, as long as the votes are sent to HQ and counted by the BOD, there is no way of knowing if the election results are fair. There needs to be an independant third party involved or visible on-line rolecall voting.

Bob

Scorched Earth.

Your loss.

information.

This (again) makes the stipulation that an LEMP is required. TRA requires docs that are not legally required in all situations. Your argument is so full of your lack of understanding of the situation, that it is difficult at best to know where to begin.

So I will skip to the end point. It is TRA's move. Until TRA makes an effort to budge and resolve the issue, instead of sitting back and smoldering in the smoke of a ten year plus old issue, the issue will remain. TRA has made no movements, other than the NAR/TRA lawsuit, to show any signs of recognition of the issues. But they remain two-faced by continuing the old-now-publicly-admitted-wrong policy, by requiring an LEMP and other stipulations. What is to become of ANY manufacturer who is able to get classifications that do not fit the NAR/TRA current paradigm. Jerry apparently has access and knowlege of bullet-proof non-expiring exemptions that TRA refuses to admit for certification. So your *simplistic* demand to comply like other makers do, cannot, and should not be complied with. TRA should be grabbing onto such exemptions like tasty hotcakes. But for now they, and NAR are content to choke the hobby, by allowing only a limited scope of business and material into the acknowledged market.

Your continued limited scope in this issue is furthering that end.

~ Duane Phillips.

This should be in the FAQ.

Every actual TRA member should forward this to the listserv and to each board member. They can't kick you all out.

Jerry

ROFL. Humidity *does* mean humid, whether temporary and passing or rather permanent. The corresponding levels of such in the two places are what is contrasted, and the fact that the sponginess *did* in fact happen due to this factor, as reported by AeroTech.

If TRA requires the manufacturer to be the certificating authority, what purpose does it serve if a manufacturer changes outsourcing location after certification? The requirement is null and void, and proved to be of no consequence to TRA by action.

This part I do not understand? Could you please rephrase?

~ Duane Phillips.

Repost for Ray (because you keep asking me questions that you are getting answers from Jerry for, who after all, is the case in question, no?)

~ Duane Phillips.

Arizona has humidity (

Both AT and JI were/are accused of labeling un-certified motors with certified numbers. How was each situation handled?

Did you forward that fax I sent to you with an appication for exemption to the DOT itself as you verbally told me on the phone?

If so on what date?

If sowhat was the titleor scaopeofthe document?

If so, what was their reply to you if any? Fax? May I have a copy? Phone? Who? When?

Thank you.

Bracketing in the facts before we divert to conclusions.