NFPA 112? Questions

This should be in the FAQ.

Jerry Irvine repLIED:

Being asked to leave upon showing up at a launch TO WATCH is blackballed.

Oh? Were 3 K motors mailed by air to NAR S&T?

And CO LDRS

And NV at one other time

And offered CA at every opportunity possible

And offered Black Rock at every opportunity possible (where the motors have been tested for several years)

AND at least 4 of the principals for propoded branded motor lines (ie RDS) also offered to bring motors to Black Rock on MANY occasions on behalf of the manufacturer whose contact information and paperwork was freely offered.

YET the only paperwork TRA can "find" is forged papers they got from AeroTech/Magnum with a hand written message on the face. Hmmmmmmm.

They also lost the entire report they used to remove me from TRA on at my hearing on the subject and with a 30 days notice to produce. Hmmm.

TRA is so misplaceful.

Jerry

Refused in this context means they reversed a position that the default asumption was that motor certification was on the menu of top 5 items to persue. That changed in BOTH organizations after the ORG leader had chats with TRA leaders. I was not present because I have a policy of arms length transactions with potential certifying authorities so I cannot be President, and prefer not to be on the board, at least as soon as any certs are contemplated, which was the case in both instances. I for example offered to populate all the equipment, a draft procedure manual and a list of test criteria basicly mirroring NFPA-1125 without adopting it specifically as TRA does opening up the lawsuits when they fail or refuse to follow it as they currently do with HUGE commercial costs (losses) mainly to motor access granted by being on the cert list to NON-MEMBERS.

Non members usage of certified motors outweighs member use by over 1000 to 1.

turbo snip for clarity.

Jerry

Wow he lied that he came to Arizona under the current TMT board? I'm sure they're laughing over that one.

performance.

Boy I wish I had a bet on that response. With enough searching I bet I could find a thread where he avoided the question for this many posts as well.

How about certifying a couple of new manufactures? Would that signal a change? Or do they just have to shut the squeaky wheel up?

Oh, so if JI did produce a LEMP he wouldn't be """""" discriminated """"" against? Doesn't EVERY manufacturer have to produce one, including a couple of new kids on the block?

Oh. So what. This is like the 7th excuse that he has to not be certified. Gee, didn't he say he GOT one at some point? So he DOEN'T have an issue with getting one. Why is it the new manufacturers can handle paperwork and some can't? That's right, he isn't a manufacturer, is he?

Yes, it's both JI and K. K won't get an LEMP and allegedly the factory is in a residence. Producing an LEMP shows some level of inspection of the facility and legitimacy as a business. Notice there were also complaints about the 9 items. Those also do nothing to promote safety. I could make motors in a van down by the river, and use my driver's license for id and they should certify those motors. I would have zero faith in your committee's certifications and I suspect we would have 100 manufacturers doing just that (and folding when the second batch fails).

That's not the way the current clubs want to do certifications. Hey, here's a thought. Create a certification board and perform your own certifications. Get the reloads in the dealer's hands free of charge. Retail them for 1/2 what 'others' do. Have dealers explain that they can't be used at NAR/TRA launches, which the customer could complain to the boards about. Explain that there are clubs forming around the country outside NAR/TRA and they could be used at those.

Or, sit at the keyboard and be a "crying child" on rmr.

How? What part of the hobby is being hurt? There are new manufacturers in the certification process so obviously someone thinks there's money to be made IN SPITE of the evil club rules.

Maybe the 2 or 3 of you could form a club and certify motors. Naaay, it would be easier to complain than take action.

Joel. phx

So let's be clear here.

Did I go to AZ or not?

Did I meet with Mark Clark or not?

Did he see me fire motors on a test stand or not?

Did he clearly say my motors would not be considered by TRA based on their current interpretations of my paperwork or not?

Did I produce a LEMP or not?

Was I subsequently refused TRA motor certs or not?

How they treat Aerotech has nothing to do with me (except perhaps their motivations). How they treat me has nothing to do with Aerotech (except perhaps their motives).

So which is it?

I need to get one and when I do I can be certified?

or

I do not need to get one but I cannot be certified anyway?

or

I need to get one but I cannot be certified anyway?

or

Jerry arrived, make up some excuse to deny him and close the door on his ass.

Yes but if it is NOT required, it is not required. It really IS that simple. On this point Kosdon is right. (and Jerry. and the NAR lawyers, and the TRA lawyers, and the NAR lawsuit, and the TRA lawsuit, and . . . and . . . and . . . the LAW). Heck maybe manufacturing the tiny quantities he does is legal in a residence for all I know. County hazmat does not even kick in on these materials till over 500 pounds, perhaps

So what? If they pass the test they pass. Ifthey fail later as errortech did with massive quantities of J350's you would fold the small guy but NOT the bigger guy who is a MUCH bigger and more pervasive problem? That makes NO sense at all. None.

And you would not change the test criteria as set forth in regulation, YOU WROTE to address your irrational concerns, you would just make up rules as you go along exactly as both TRA and NAR actually do?

Good old boys willing to violate the law and bow to the arbitrary and capricious rules of TRA and NAR (in diametric opposition to NFPA-1125 they authored, adopted as their own and which they openly violate), and, note this, and also were passed by that arbitrary good old boys network as being worthy of being declared a manufacturer, even though there is no such procedure in law or regulation to apply to them and be accepted or rejected on!!!

It is arbitrary and capricious on its face and openly!!

motors has been

to be doted and

WHOA STEVE! Go ahead and let it all hang out. Don't stop there, just spill all the beans and sentiments at once!

It isn't like they were state secrets. TRA actions speak for themselves.

The methods used to keep _Jerry_ out affect _my_ ability to enjoy the hobby, and therefore are _bad_.

It must really be painful to know that Jerry is legally right. Both 10 years ago, and today.

~ Duane Phillips.

Huh?

That lets everyone sell motors. Now if you're a club member, is that ALL you care about? Tell me, when 5 "importers" fail to post second batch tests or re-label motors, how is the membership going to react when the cert is pulled? And if they'd spent $500 on cases?

If I bought the motors from Taiwan, none of the local or federal rules apply. Kids could be making motors in the dirt right next to the Nikes. Failed motors per batch may be higher, and won't we know when 3 Ka-pLOw reports come in and the motors are decertified.

Will club members be willing to buy 'certified' motors, or will they again be at the BODs door shouting "you're not doing a good job"?

Joel. phx

Severely!

And why not?

Meeting the tech standards is hard enough to vett any "detnojets".

And in the same breath you do not object to TRA-EX?

Ask the owners of APS systems which is STILL promoted on ROL

Jerry

~ Duane Phillips.

Don't know what address they may have shipped to, but all of the DOT exemptions that I have read so far state that shipment by air is allowed. When did this supposedly occur?

What is the need for a magazine? I thought that APCP was not explosive.

Bob

Thank you for this clarification. This may help a few people understand the purpose of an EX number...

~ Duane Phillips

~ Duane Phillips.

LOL!

Very nice analogy.

~ Duane Phillips.

Has been done.

We know this... the question was rhetorical. Those same codes do not require NAR or TRA to specifically certify motors, which you continue to imply they do... not even in the states that adopt them as law. That motor certifications are required, is one point... that NAR and TRA are required to do so, and to the extent of requiring government paperwork that the government itself does not require, is quite another.

That is two-faced, and hypocritical. This is recognition without the willingness to correct it at one of the most industry standard-setting levels.

~ Duane Phillips.

Exactly.

Yep. At that time I was thinking that the natural thing to do (since it can take a long time to get the testing and classification done to establish that a genuinely new composition, from a manufacturer starting up, is safe and legal to ship) would be for someone in the hobby to order up some batches of small motors made by some industrial manufacturer who had mixtures of established shipping safety, label them with appropriate "letter" sizes, and offer them for certification.

Then I thought, "Wait a minute... isn't that exactly what Jerry did to create the 'US Rockets' motors?" I asked precisely that question, and he confirmed it.

Seeing what's come the way of someone who previously attempted this approach to supply the HPR/MR market with motors isn't likely to encourage other would-be outsource motor suppliers from stepping up to the plate, now is it??

What he said.

-dave w

They they were not *refused*. Refused packages are returned to the sender without being opened. Since they were not refused, they were by definition *accepted*. Once accepted, they were subsequently held for the authorities. And IIRC, no one was ever punished for accepting those materials.

Why was no one punished? Because the shipper is responsible for the shipment until it has been received. At that very moment, the receiver is responsible. If the shipper is legal to posses and the recip not (i.e. forged prescriptions) the recip has a problem. If the shipper is illegal and the recip is not (i.e. DOT violations), the shipper has a problem. Bottom line, you cannot be punished for accepting materials that you have a legal right to posses even if the means of transport was not legal.

Any DEA agents out there? If so, please explain that when a narcotics shipment being transported through a common carrier is being intercepted and the goal is to arrest both the shipper and the receiver, you wait until the receiver has signed for the package and taken possession of a prohibited substance before you introduce him to your handcuffs. I used to work for a large brown shipping company and I've seen it done dozens of times. The procedure is known by all involved. AHJ dons official uniform and pulls up in driveway with clipboard, handtruck, etc. Recipient signs clipboard and about 5 guys jump out of the back of the deliver truck....