on TRA disclosure

iz:

phil stein:

Me.

I'm your proof, Phil.

That was 140 some-odd motors that Tripoli lied about being 'certified' - for

6 years - motors that they said *I* issued the certifications for. I did NOT certify those motors. (see that NFPA paper I wrote for the exact ones). There's only one person on the face of the planet that is *legally authorized* to issue motor certifications for TMT and that is the chairman. That was me.

I assume you've got a current 'Approved Motor List' (from TRA).

Now, tell me / us which of those motors were *actually* tested?

We have already categorically proven that they lie about certifications - so which ones (today) can you trust?

You can? How?

Give me a CITE.

-- john.

Nope, just once. Next time I'll have a lawyer check it out to see if it's real before driving all the way up to Ventura. (Had to rent a car to do it too, 'cause mine was in the shop.)

Fairly self-explanatory. But I think "wishes of the membership" might be more accurately phrased as "immediate concerns of the membership". The problems lay not only in public perception, but in government perceptions as well. That which was regulated in those days was regulated by generic explosive and pyrotechnic laws; there was no allowance in the regulations for rocketry as a hobby. Somehow, the prospective hobbysts had to demonstrate the possibility of it becoming one. There were no precedents or examples from which to draw. They had to show that rocketeers were cognizant of the perceived concerns and literally invent a mechanism whereby those concerns were addressed and addressed in a manner which would give legitimacy to their efforts.

A common response even today by newbie observers at an HPR launch is, "They (the government) let you do this?" Whether the members were explicitly concerned with DOT/ATF regulations or not, the general public is, and was. And the fledgling orgs were fighting a PR battle.

It is not a great leap for me to imagine a concerned group which was considering motor issues to ask the question, "What other (besides performance) issues are impacting commercial motor manufacturing?" The last paragraph, above, addresses a real concern of some rocketeers. Back then, it was a "feature", not an "appeasement".

The pre-existing DOT/ATF laws did not consider sport rocketry. They were written to address professional rocketry and explosive material issues. But if it walks like a duck, and talks like duck, it might be reasonable to suppose it would be regulated like a duck as it grew. Rather than a power grab, this can be seen as a pre-emptive attempt to avoid federal regulation by enacting self-regulations specific to the new endeavor.

Which is what I asked you for in the previous post and you replied; survival and dominance. At this point, however, there is no indication at all that a power-based motive exists or existed.

You have essentially showed by the cited material in your post so far that the intent and necessity of "codes" were to promote rocketry. This is a far cry from using them to establish a power base over the industry for self-serving reasons.

At this point in time, Jerry has alienated me from that issue. Though I wish him well, I no longer care and it is no longer an issue of concern to me. Especially now that Apogee has some long-burn motors in F impulse range. It has become patently obvious to me why he can't get motor certs and the reasons have nothing to do with NAR/TRA motor cert "irregularities".

I want to fly HPR and I do see problems in rocketry. The only current motor "situation" I am aware of which directly involves the NAR/TRA is US Rockets and I no longer consider that to be an issue of certification policy.

Thanks for listing Jerry's issues on motor certs, but its not about Jerry. He is just one of several motor makers and those several others seem to have certified motors for sale. The negative trends you talk about are not related solely to motor manufacturing, other than by issues brought about through circumstances far outside of NAR/TRA actions and policies; 9/11, HSA/SEA, etc.

I hardly think one individual's inability to get certified is a major tourniquet on the neck of high power rocketry. And it is NOT just a motor issue; you seem as fixated on this single issue almost as much as Jerry.

Well, I guess I don't see rocketry as the "mess" you do. I see the NAR trying hard to promote rocketry and doing so with volunteers. I see TRA trying, and sometimes floundering a little, to promote HPR in a very difficult political and economic environment. Our biggest problems are not coming from the orgs, they are coming from bureaus, departments, and branches of the US Government and unfortunate social realities. We have been affected, along with all of society, by many things in the last few years which have nothing to do with NAR/TRA at all and which may be contributing (I'm not saying its the SOLE cause) to a reduction in participation. We are not all Gates Brothers. Some rocketeers actually believe the self-serving politicians in Washington; an unfortunate circumstance, but true nonetheless. One of my "rocket kids" left to play more multi-player video games; we're in a very competitive market for younger members nowadays.

Could the orgs do better? Of course. ANY organization can do better as none are perfect. What would help them do better are constructive suggestions, not rantings on past actions. As you point out, hindsight is 20/20. (I understand this requires a positive view of the orgs which you do not have.)

I see nothing to indicate the orgs are acting as you imply (survival, dominance) based upon the content of your post. In fact, you have provided evidence they (initially, at least) acted in the best interest of rocketry, making your "survival" agenda a good thing. Nor have you specifically denied my interpretation of your view of the organizations and their actions. I will, then, assume it is substantially correct.

There is not much on rmr that is CONCLUSIVE. But this has to be an example.

First hand authoratative witness. It does not get more conclusive.

Jerry

Do you have a web link for that?

Bob Kaplow: Do you have an email address I can reach you by? I'd like to ask you something privately.

This is why I asked, in another thread, what would happen to ALL the TRA motor certs if TRA ceased to exist. It would be hard for the NAR to grandfather in 'part' of something that had such a nefarious past. I was not there so I have no first hand knoweledge of what went on. If I am way off base, please correct me.

Patrick

One can only hope.

As a potential L3 I had originally thought of a baby 'M' for the bird, but if I have to go with the O-5100 by CTI (CAR cert) for it, well, hehehehe, just don't tell my wife!

All kidding aside, I still need the Advil for this mess.

Patrick - yeah, there would still be a few 'M' motors available, but with a ready made excuse...

AHHHH! Turn it off! Turn it off!

RMR is like an analog radio, in that most places the dial stops are just static. You get some gospel, some rock, some country, etc. etc..

They overcame the primary objection with an education centric practice. I cite the Handbook of Model Rocketry by G Harry Stine as exhibit #1.

The PROOF (hard proof) was even posted and Ray replies like this?

Your mental vacancy is showing.

Why? They have been publishing them for years despite the TRA TMT chair officially notifying them the certs were false. The track record has been set.

Yes I agree that is a perfect way to assure an "ethical" flight :)

I'll save you the effort. The next one will be bogus too.

It is more interesting {sad} that the us/them attitude still exists as evident by this post.

Joel. phx

C.H.I.C. 960 on your am dial for all the livstock reports!

Chicken!

Randy

I guess I did forget the morning show with Randy and Kurt.

LIVE! With Chickens!

Pock pock.

Hope we don't ruffle too many feathers, what with all these "serious" discussions going on about how to "fix" everything. But I am not putting away my rusty screwdriver yet...

You got it. The feathers are really flyin' here in RMR land.

My "kill coup" is chock full of clucks these days. Almost time to call Goldkist to make a pickup.

And what is that smell?!?!

Gary wrote in news:FBAUb.100512$U%5.495410@attbi_s03:

Understood. Sorry about the misattribution.

len.