[TRA motor certs] USR

Sorry to hear that you have this overwhelming compunction to chew the gum you scrape off of theater seats. Try a google search on psychiatrists.

BTW, your google search parameters about Jerry don't return anything. Funny how all the accusations about Jerry seem to fall apart when the scum sucking filthy ass wipe accuser is pinned down to prove their position.

strike two.

Bob

"I thank Sue for publishing the most complete account of the rationale for this particular case that I have seen, and I thank Bruce for permitting her to do so. Please take the following as requests for clarification, not as a defense of any person or company living, dead, or worse, who hasn't yet refunded my 1997 t-shirt money :-( "

Ow! Oh! Ew!

steve

That just confirms the decerts were arbitrary and capricious.

Jerry

No.

"And that I just didn't have room."

- Sue McMurray

If they adopted NFPA 1127 why do they add permits NOT required by law?

And what would those be?

Actually, this is EXACTLY the kind of thing that I would expect TRA to have in place. The only question now (about this part) is, was it put in place before or after the claimed incident where Jerry's motors are supposed to have destroyed the test stand.

Kudo's to TMT for having put this in place, my only remaining question (regarding this particular aspect) is to ask if this information is printed somewhere, in a readily available form (such as on the website, etc.) for manufacturers to read/comprehend.

David Erbas-White

Unfortunately (I say unfortunately because it 'appears' that Jerry may have done some relabeling), the decerts WERE arbitrary and capricious.

Where is the paper trail telling USR that there were 'improperly labeled' motors? Where is the papertrail that says that handwritten labels are not acceptable on motors? Where is the set of rules that define that if a violation occurs, motors are immediately decertified?

It seems as though (straight from the letter, actually) that RSO's were given the discretion to determine whether or not the motors were within the three-year window, but because of what was PERCEIVED TO BE irregularities, the were simply decertified.

How does this protect the consumer? If I had been a USR customer at that time, and had just bought a bunch of motors, and had seen that they were certified, then they were ARBITRARILY AND WITHOUT DUE PROCESS DE-CERTIFIED, I wouldn't have felt in the LEAST bit protected.

In regards to the purported failures, I would ask why the recent Ellis J350 catos didn't also lead to an immediate removal of certification.

The entire problem is, in fact, that TMT is running without PUBLISHED POLICIES that they ACTUALLY FOLLOW.

David Erbas-White

I do have to add, Jerry, that while your 'oft quoted' statement above may be true, it makes a lot more sense if she was traveling in a small pickup, with kids, and was going to be on the road for a couple of weeks for her to say she didn't have the room. Under those circumstances, I wouldn't have taken them, either (but it still doesn't square away the things that TRA appears to have done).

This is why I'm adamant about trying to get the 'full' story here... It sounds as though Sue was being aboveboard, it sounds as though she was at least trying to do her job, but it also sounds as though Kelly was 'directing' her to do things that weren't particularly kosher, because of whatever animosity is between the two of you (and that he was able to get away with that with her because she was relying on him to do things 'properly'). It doesn't excuse TRA's actions as a whole, but it certainly helps me understand where Sue fit into this whole scheme of things...

David Erbas-White

On the contrary, especially in view of the lawsuit, it certainly DOES look as though TRA invited the BATF into our domain by doing this. If our legal position is that APCP is not explosive, etc., then we should be acting on that, and not requiring permits that are not necessary on that basis.

David Erbas-White

There's more, if your not afraid of the truth.

"I believe that JI has simply washed his hands of the whole thing. He has argued that it has nothing to do with USR. I actually think he believes that--but I don't. Where I come from, a business is responsible for the actions of its whole supply chain. They keep tabs on their subcontractors, and replace the ones that aren't producing. And, Keeping customers informed, whether or not they will be pleased by the information, is imperative."

Bob, Did you order a shirt?

snipped-for-privacy@mindspring.com wrote: This is a new twist. All it would have taken was for Jerry to make a post stating the facts and keep us informed. It is probably a local call for him, long distance for you. I am willing to wait, since I have come this far. If he could not handle it he should not have volunteered, plain and simple. If you take on a responsibility, then it is right for you to full fill your obligations. Nothing Jerry has done or said has ever materialized or amounted to anything other than a fervor, or a pipe dream.

You may have initiated the T shirts, but your assumed responsibility ended when he "took over", and you are to be commended. If it works out, great, if not, we can start again.

If I ever do get my T shirts, they will never be worn, as they will be sure to be a collectors item, especially if one was to print all the posts that have been made regarding USR, Jerry and these T shirts. Take at least 3 reams of paperI still have about 3.1 Gig left on HD, lots of room for archieving yet.

All Jerry did was collect the $$, and hang rmr T shirt buyers on the line to dry.

Once again, thanks for what you posted and followed up on.

Foxeye

Posted to rmr in October of '97

"Jason, and others, It's the principle (and Jerry's handling) of the thing. Ted C was putting feelers out regarding the T-Shirts he designed and a lot of folks showed some positive enthusiasm about them. Jerry Irvine joined the discussion by offering to have them produced and the fact that he could take credit cards was a bonus. "Look a creditable rocket manufacturer has offered to do this for us!" Jerry quoted prices and promised delivery for the shirts in late June or early July. Ted basically said, 'OK, you have the resources, do it (not a quote)', as, I suspect, we all did. My prepaid by Visa order (~50.00) was placed early June and was promised a July 1 delivery date. My credir card was charged within a few days, by a third party, of placing the order. I have yet to receive anything! Not even an apology or status report, even after posting several inquiries and sending personal E-Mail. This man has no integrity! He is without honor (apologies to Worf). I believe he took money under false pretenses to fund his motor manufacturing operation. His silence tends to reenforce my assumption. He did post ONE message about the RMR "WHINERS" and promised to give us a status report by, IIRC, September 11.September 11 has come and gone. You know folks, Jon Dunbar might have been right.

FRAUD! If it looks like a duck, quacks like a duck......

Yes, I know I can get Visa to reverse the charges, and I'm real close to doing that, however, I must be stupid to allow him just a little more time, since I like the T-shirts!

Hey, I have an idea. Can everyone spell BOYCOTT?

"Jerry Irvine wrote on Aug 08, 1997:

this experience up to the fact that there is no satisfying rmr'ers by anyone at any time. Period. I can live with that.

what, no "thanks for finding and re-posting this stuff, Steve. I like learning all I can about what went on then and why were are where we are today."?

steve

However she also claimed I assaulted her. Patently false. Right in the MIDDLE of the field at LDRS? The first time I ever met her? What motive? Gees.

Correct.

After seeing what Jerry's been put through, I imagine a lot of potential vendors wouldn't want to touch the "NAR/TRA certified hobby motor" market with a ten-foot pole.

I know I wouldn't...

-dave w

I did.

Of course, only within the insane little universe of Tripoli's control trip would it _matter_ whether otherwise-identical motors were manufactured before or after some administratively-based "decertification" date!

-dave w