[TRA motor certs] USR

Have a little fun. Go back and read in detail Kelly's letter to Irvine.

Where in TRA's charter, articles, by laws, rules, etc., is the power given to TRA to decline to test / cert motors unless the submitter agrees to not criticize TRA?

Duuh?

Kelley all on his own adds additional conditions for testing / certification for only one manufacturer, in that entity's capacity as a manufacturer.

Not their capacity as a member or former member, but in their capacity as a manufacturer.

Need any more evidence of a vendetta? Need any more evidence of double standards, one set for everybody other than Jerry, and one impossible to meet set of standards for Jerry only?

Vote out all TRA board incumbents!

-- Jim McLaughlin

Please don't just hit the reply key. Remove the obvious from the address to reply.

Have a little fun. Go back and read in detail Kelly's letter to Irvine.

Where in TRA's charter, articles, by laws, rules, etc., is the power given to TRA to decline to test / cert motors unless the submitter agrees to not criticize TRA?

Duuh?

Kelley all on his own adds additional conditions for testing / certification for only one manufacturer, in that entity's capacity as a manufacturer.

Not their capacity as a member or former member, but in their capacity as a manufacturer.

Need any more evidence of a vendetta? Need any more evidence of double standards, one set for everybody other than Jerry, and one impossible to meet set of standards for Jerry only?

Vote out all TRA board incumbents!

-- Jim McLaughlin

Please don't just hit the reply key. Remove the obvious from the address to reply.

Two items I found interesting (one point from each side):

1. There's a lot of 'bull-pucky' in there from Bruce about "Jerry should have known they put insured stuff on airliners", etc., despite the fact that it was clearly marked (even in the photos) as "do not put on airliners". That seems to me to be a postal service problem, not a Jerry problem.

1. Apparently, though, Jerry did ship Thermalite. I don't know if this is/was allowed by USPS, and I don't know if it is/was required to have a LEUP to possess it (I'm talking about at the time in question, I don't know if/when any rules changed, etc.). I WOULD like to hear a response from Jerry about this.

I did find it 'fallacious' that Bruce's letter declares that Jerry sent them to someone under 18, when the individual involved claims they WERE

David Erbas-White

Hmmm... what's the hazard class on small pieces of thermalite?

I know that BlackSky used (before they recently started requiring LEUP's for them!) to ship e-matches by US mail - they were labeled something like "toy propellant devices - standard mail only - handle with care".

-dave w

Yep - I noticed that.

-dave w

What a crock of garbage. That link only illustrates just how far off track TRA was/is. They mis-interpret, to their detriment and the detriment of the hobby, all the exemptions, and then tell him that compliance with their false deciphering is all they will except.

Funny, I don't recall anyone claiming Jerry did jail time or got busted by the FEDs for anything posted in that so-called Bruce Kelly *opinion* letter.

Which is *astoundingly* acknowleged by the very documents and arguments they logged in the court case! They (we) are now fighting to keep what they tried hard to give away.

If you ask me, more people better mount up fast on the Jerry wagon... it is such a critical point in the freedom of the *safe* hobby. It is one thing to decide amongst ourselves that certain training and growing milestones should be in place... it is quite another to *defend* being fingerprinted and subject to sudden search without a warrant, just to participate in HPR hobby rockets, with a safety record like no other industry.

Why does an exemption need to be a tiny loophole before people will abuse the garbage out of it? How is it that we can have such a clear exemptive path, and not be gripping to it like it was life support?

The way I see it more and more every day is: Jerry has always been right.

What a crock of garbage. That link only illustrates just how far off track TRA was/is. They mis-interpret, to their detriment and the detriment of the hobby, all the exemptions, and then tell him that compliance with their false deciphering is all they will except.

Funny, I don't recall anyone claiming Jerry did jail time or got busted by the FEDs for anything posted in that so-called Bruce Kelly *opinion* letter.

Which is *astoundingly* acknowleged by the very documents and arguments they logged in the court case! They (we) are now fighting to keep what they tried hard to give away.

If you ask me, more people better mount up fast on the Jerry wagon... it is such a critical point in the freedom of the *safe* hobby. It is one thing to decide amongst ourselves that certain training and growing milestones should be in place... it is quite another to *defend* being fingerprinted and subject to sudden search without a warrant, and giving up other basic rights, just to participate in HPR hobby rockets, with a safety record like no other industry.

Why does an exemption need to be a tiny loophole before people will abuse the garbage out of it? How is it that we can have such a clear exemptive path, and not be gripping to it like it was life support?

The way I see it more and more every day is: Jerry has always been right about the concepts.

Hey Duaine, tell us how you really - really feel, I mean, really - really feel..(;-) Oh well, it's Saturday; time to go launch rockets....

Fred

Duane Phillips wrote:

This should be in the FAQ.

NOTHING snipped, especially not the link to ROL (this is what they consider appropriate content for their commercial site).

Jerry

I was investigated 8 ways from Sunday. I guess having the POSTMASTER personally approve the shipments was helpful there :)

The failure of the attempt to expand the definition of "mailable items" was a failure as a DIRECT result of TRA putting their nose in someone elses business (no TRA involved), in a clearly MALICIOUS way.

But maybe you like 24mm 60F21's as the maximum mailable motor :)

TRA certainly wants to protect you from those 54mm K motors that brought TRA into existence in the first place. First from IBCo and Composite Distribution in the 70's, then from U.S. Rockets in the 80's. TRA had a growth phase, remember?

And remember who was the local leader leading the trend?

And the vendor with national distribution of HPR?

Ah, forget it.

Jerry

Losing your license as you exit the trade anyway may be imperfect, but it happens to lawyers all the time.

That in no way invalidates everything he utters (especially on RMR). You should know better Fred. Or are you a FUD-master now too?

Jerry

Point.

Besides being ATF exempt under 27 CFR-555.141-a-8 (it is a propellant actuated device after all), and 27 CFR 55.141-a-7-v (prior to 1998)

In addition to all of that, all certified USR motors (NAR and TRA) used Thermalite and wire wrap igniters so as "model rocket igniters" they also fall under the TOY PROPELLANT DEVICE EXEMPTION/PROVISION.

When Brucie and Chuckipoo start groping they have no limits. In that context this all makes perfect sense. They do not expect people to scrutinize the data, only believe their own conclusions. Just like Ray Dunakin typically does.

Jerry

USPS allows specific hard 1.4S as well as specific and hard 4.1, as well as "other items meeting the rule."

DMM -Hazardous materials C023.3.3

Definition 2.1 Mailability 2.2

Those were properly mailed.

It's 5 degrees here, where you are it's 8 degrees and it's almost

So if we go back to the beginning, TRA was born of persons being critical of NAR, but the head of TRA was too thin skinned to take any criticism himself........or are we talking money here? Losing a cash cow? Or at least losing free money?

I just got done testing out a new kewl Semroc Little Herc Tumble recovery model at the snow bound local park. Kewl flight, even on a A8-3 to about 600 feet. Got my BP fix for the day.

Next Saturday, an AirStart cluster in my Loc Ultimate fired by a PerfectFlite Mini Timer3

/ArtU

Actually, I have stated how I feel. What remains unclear is how you feel. I know it hurt your feelings to get negative feedback from Jerry when you tried to help. Personally, I cannot blame the man too much on that point, as it is an open wound that turned marginal hope into another bogus investigation. Can you? Yes, he could acknowlege a bit better that you tried to help. But I don't know if you ever evaluated for your own his point of view. Does his point of view on the regulation of the industry concur with your own? Or do you cuncur with TRA/NAR current practice?

David *did* put a disclaimer later in his note saying something to the effect that you probably tried honestly. You only grabbed onto the first remark that insinuated that you *may* have doubted and foibled on helping Jerry. His point was not to blame you. His point was that people don't know the laws very well and default to FUD-based reactions. Espesially the ATF. Don't focus on the words as much as the message.

When it comes to FUD WRT Jerry Irvine, we *know* several things:

- he has been around rocketry as long or longer than most.

- he is far deeper into the rocketry industry than most people realize

- he has been able to get exemptions no one else will even try for

- most long-timers in the hobby have heard of him

- most gov't agencies have also heard of him, yet he is a free man

- based on all the above, this isn't some secret source we don't know... the man is real, has excellent product and excellent advice, and champions the

- most people recognize the current *real* hobby motor distribution problem

- most of what people don't like about Jerry are his fiery words against those whom he feels are killing the future of the hobby, and his quick disparagements in other regards, his lack of following apologies, and in general some lack of tactful communication, some of which may be warranted, some of which may not be... again opinions... not fact... this alone cannot be the threshold upon judgement of his convictions and purpose.

- nearly all who have tried his products in the last 5+ years will attest the quality, regardless if they like Jerry or not

- everything we publicly *need* to know about Jerry Irvine is out on his sleeve, the rest is just nosing into his business affairs, which have little to do with the performance of the outcome of his product WRT the hobby.

- the man has one of the last bastions of grip on the exemptions in practice of the freedoms, which the ATF is trying to put a lid on illegally and for no valid cause whatsoever... only because they think they can... and as long as the major organizational representatives agree with that... THEY WILL!

So I *know* who Jerry Irvine is and where he stands, even though I have never met the man in person. I *know* who Bruce Kelly is, and where he stands... and I *have* met him in person... even asked him about ole Jerry Irvine... but that is another story... I know where I stand... and I believe I have stated as much. Where does Fred stand?

I find this to be a particularly helpful and thoughtful post (AND IT COULD JUST AS EASILY PLUG IN SOME OTHER NAME THAN JERRY IRVINE AND HAVE SIMILAR MEANING).

This should be in the FAQ.

We will be shooting rockets EVERY weekend in January and already shot rockets DURING THE WEEK for most of the first week of January (and the last week in December).

I hope Fred (and many others) can fly 1/10 the number of flights or the power discharged.

Jerry