What's More Important?

Lets review the FACTS.

1) Lawsuit - we were told it would take about a year and a half until it was resolved. Nearly 4 years later, it's going nowhere in a hurry. Ya think strings are being pulled behind the scenes to hold it up? Noooooo, that couldn't happen...

2)Legislative effort - we were promised a lightning fast effort passing the senate & house in a month or 2, signed by the president no later than May 24. Result - DEAD.

As far as Jerry suing TRA I say go for it - sue the crap out of them. They are accomplices in reaching the current situation. After "The Fire" it would have been nice to have other motor choices, like USR. But Noooo, AT had a virtual monopoly. Was this the result of collusion? I smell a rat. IMO, motor testing should be just that. No more, no less. It is not the responsibility of motor testing to determine if zee paperz are in order. Leave that to the regulatory agencies. It's their job. And if a motor manufacturer claims they have an exemption under 27CFR555.141(a-8), in writing, that works for me.

Zoltan, you're sitting there complaining that yelling at the ground won't make it hear you or whatever it was that you said, but what do you hope to accomplish by coming in here and attempting to crush the hopes of the dedicated rocketeers in this newsgroup? I'm not saying you will actually do that, but it seems like thats your intention here. You want to be helpful? My guess is you DON'T, but if you do how about proposing ways that you think would help us get out of our "fantasyland" and get things going in our favor. Sorry, but I just don't see what the purpose of your posts is other than to discourage people.

Randy D Co-Prez, SoJARS

That reminds me. No matter what I accurately say about the intransigence of the NAR and the wrongheadedness of the NAR President or association policies, do "invest" in the legal fund. And if you already did, reinvest.

Donate to the litigation fund VIA THE NAR.

Jerry Irvine told you so.

Point. There is a disproportionate number of cowards in HPR today.

Jerry

Hard to argue with.

Therefore we have to annoy with procedural efforts.

And LEVERAGE our considerable indirect political influence.

Jerry

Read my reply, but he **is** right.

Being pulled at ATF.

Being pulled at judiciary.

Being pulled at DOT.

Being pulled at DOJ.

Being pulled at DOD. (I have not even begun to discuss that on rmr).

It makes you wonder given the actual incident rate and hazard as actually experienced why such concentrated effort is focused on us on the DOWNSIDE of a terrorist response. Afghanistan is safely in USA hands. Iraqis safely in USA hands, Saddam CAPTURED, NOT KILLED!!!!!!!

We won.

We rock.

I want my civil rights back now.

That was killed by TRA/NAR meddling at least in major part.

I have BEGGED them to not make me! Literally down on knees begged.

You are almost alone among the people, with any say at least, despite their OBVIOUS conflicts of interest and WELL documented personal and political grudges.

I admit most of the current leadership of both NAR and TRA has a grudge against me. I have posted every sorded detail too. Let the reader decide. If you have that much time on your hands :)

Jerry

For 10 years + the leadership HAS LED US in that direction. It is natural it has continued. It is planned.

It has been sufficient for me for 10 years of blackball and rabid attack. Despite my agressive efforts to oppose the juggernaut of restriction and regulation and criminalization and negative growth and blackball, of MANY potential suppliers, not just me, I just buy my consumer rockets at Wal-Mart and limit my real rocket activity to military ranges and amateur range (not ranges) with overhead protection and permits since 1943.

I suggest you get used to Estes. We are almost there exclusively. Perhaps 1500 of 20,000 HPR guys remain and that is dropping.

Jerry told you so.

At the ROC launch (TRA and presumably NAR) in CA yesterday there were M80's discharged, multiple mixed grain reloads flown (obviously uncertified), yet even CSFM certified USR motors were openly refused.

Gotta love the hypocracy of Riick O Neil. It is world record superior.

Jerry

You're both right.

It goes well beyond finger pointing.

If the LAW says exempt, and the lawsuit says exempt, and the lawyers say exempt, and the only long duration suppliers say exempt (USR, ACS, VUL), and NAR/TRA/AT say "restricted access-sm", guess who is obviously and clearly wrong?

Jerry

On Sun, 14 Dec 2003 21:30:57 -0800, Jerry Irvine wrote:

ThreadRuinedByJerry wrote: [nothing]

How can anyone "ruin" a thread? Did Jerry post something that made what you wanted to say come out wrong? Does his posting to a thread keep you from doing so (by replying to any of the prior messages)?

What's with your attitude? It strikes me as nothing more than a cheap shot personal jab.

-dave w

well you listed two different things now.

Squabling amongst ourselves and everything to harm one another

the latter is just plain stupid on that you and I can agree.

but on the first. if you mean squabbling in reference to the latter ok but if you mean ranting whining raving etc.. that is just people venting. their is little I can do for example to get the current president convicted of treason for which he is guilty. so I rant and rave. it allows me to vent and keeps me from trying to shove a nuke up his ass and likely getting myself killed in the process :-)

Chris Taylor

Well he IS right. its a dismal future we see ahead.

sure their is a CHANCE a judge MIGHT see it to have it senses about him but look at the other laws that have passed. if the morons can pass stuff like that how long to pass stuff against us.

right now we are TECHNICALLY right and we are going to HOPE that a judge "see's" that we are right and votes accordingly.

How long before they get congress to right up a new bill squashing us once and for all.

they have to try. if we win we invite other persecuted groups to "try" their luck. so they "have" to try and beat us. well ok they have already beat us. they have to try and stop us from making a come back.

Look what happened with the No call list. found it unconstitutional. it took what ? 48 hours for congress to write up a work around so the FTC could make the no call list ???

THIS is what I fear. that we will win and then they will simple backdoor us. sure this is wrong but we are small fries. who will hear us ?

We are RIGHT. they are WRONG. but how do we make anyone listen ? the hobby will be long DEAD before we can build up enough "numbers" to be a strong enough force to reckon with.

they only have to shut us down "long enough" to put the manufacturers out of buisness. then even if we win so what ? their will be nothing left.

I HOPE their is more light at the end of the tunnel. I really do. but I see dark days ahead far reaching past rocketry.

Personally I will continue to fly my rockets till their are no motors (then I will learn to make my own) or till they kill or arrest me. and the latter only by force.

Chris Taylor

Well, from one "anonymous poster" to another you have definately written the most utterly pointless post.

snip:

I want to come over to your house. I will bring beer and my rockets.

Not TRA Not NAR Not Kelly Not Rogers Not Kosdon etc.etc,etc

May I come over so you can beat me about the head to release your tension, so we can have a reasoned debate afterward?

Vision and action create reality.

It IS that simple.

That is mostly a Kelly creation. It is a tool to declare an emergency every time the magazine heat gets tough, and declare himself the savior every time he gets out an issue or two so renewals come in. It is literally that simple.

Good luck and good job.