ARM: Is Dragon kicking Tamiya's butt?

AcornMan wrote: (snip)

I'm willing to say "Yes" to this question. At this past weekend's Region 2 contest, I managed to score a new Tiger I (Late) and still cannot get over what's included in the box. 1/48th seems to be all the rage now and Tamiya is still offering their ancient Shermans while Dragon has been slowly offering more and more up-to-date releases (Shermans, for instance) in 1/35th. When it comes to looking for kits to buy, THIS modeler looks at Dragon first to see if they've produced what I seek. Don't count AFV Club or Academy out, either...

Frank Kranick

Tamiya sat on their collective asses and both Dragon and AFV Club have left them in the dust. Tamiya is now more concerned with RC crap in their home market.

That's where the money is. I would say 90% of the profit my local model shp makes comes from selling R/C vehicles, planes, helicopters, etc. The static models are just a sideline.

(kim)

Dragon is pulling out all the stops, and are putting out some great kits. I think the big question in my mind is whether, once they put out a few kits with all the extras, they'll keep it up, or backslide? I would rather pay a few dollars more for the metal barrels, PE, and individual links, than having to search for what I really want. I'm hoping that Tamiya steps up, to meet the challenge. They've still got some of the best kits on the market. I don't think that they're King of the Hill yet. Dragon is still playing catch up, but doing a great job of it! After Tamiya, I've purchased more Dragon than anything else.

Robert Bush wrote: I would rather pay a

Ya know ???

Metal barrels really are not the be all end all. Plastic generally works just fine. sometimes a whole lot better !!

And for all the PE parts, one must be carefully in that they are really only 2D for a lot of objects. So be carefully and pick and choose what you use of them Some (particularly Eduard) really have some useless pieces, in that they will never capture the true

But some of the PE stuff does look downright stupid to me...........

Oh, and the Jordi Rubio barrels ?? Some of them are more innacurate than the plastic one's they are supposed to replace (5 cm L 60 barrel for example)

Same with some of the PE parts.

If you think that you *must* have PE parts, than you had better do your research !!!

Dont let the *WoW* factor of PE and resin and metal parts color your judgment soo much that you really miss the big picture.....

BTW, just ask Cookie, and he will tell ya that even Dragon gets stuff wrong at times.

AM

I agree 100% Its rare that I use all the PE, and sometimes have more fun building out of the box. The biggest problems for me with PE is getting the damn stuff to stay on half the time! No matter what they say, plastic and metal don't always mix, no matter the CA!

Not always is > I would rather pay a

In a similar vein, I heard a few years ago that Dragon at one time was making more money from their 1999 intro'd action figure line than they were on models? I thought to myself at the time that probably was true, but most likely a temporary fad. I haven't peeked inside a Dragon kit in a while, but judging from the comments about Dragon's progress, it would seem there's money yet to be made in models too.

WmB

P.S. If you haven't seen the Dragon 1/6th action figures, they are scale model works of art in their own right, in many areas.

Battle Barbies!!!!!!!

I couldn't resist.......

Lets not forget Trumpeter!

They have a lot of great stuff out and more to come. It seems that for the most part their quality gets better with every new kit they produce!

DML does get it wrong from time to time -- but unlike Tamiya, which to the best of my knowledge has only ever corrected one kit (the M1A1, which originally had an M1 turret with a 120mm gun on in and therefore was nearly 10" too short) DML DOES correct major errors to their kits.

They have also redone all of their early WWII kits, and to good effect. Tamiya redid their German ones (Pzkw. III, IV, Panther, and Tigers) but nothing else.

AFV Club is excellent when they avoid silly things like too many moving parts.

Trumpeter has made the greatest gains, going from pure junk like their Type 98 and T-55 kits to state-of-the-art ones like the KVs that yield little to DML or AFV Club.,

It's a shame that Tamiya has apparently lost the bubble, and insists on releasing the same old incorrect kits at ever increasing prices.

Cookie Sewell

(snip)

Mind you, it's not just armor - the 1/32nd 'Black Knights' F-14A is (basically) the old F-14A kit with added weapons sprues - for a goodly sum more than the original kit. They've not tweaked the molds quite enough to command $167 (MSRP) from my wallet...

Frank Kranick

I don't think they've lost it, they're just focusing it elsewhere. The catalogs I've seen and their website seems to be mostly geared towards R/C. The plastic kits have definitely taken a backseat to it.

"Francis X. Kranick, Jr." wrote in news:T56dnb- snipped-for-privacy@adelphia.com:

Aye, but here's the difference. I got very excited about the new Dragon "DAK" Tiger I. Until I saw the price and looked at all the parts. While I'm sure that adds greatly to the appearance one must also regard the amount of time available to complete a project.

So I bought the Tami Tiger Initial Afrika version for 19.99 and the Late version for 25 on eBay. I have some goodies laying around for both I've had for awhile and the big deal is putting Zimmerit on the Late and using the PE exhaust shield I have for the Afrika. All things considered they seem a very good value. I expect when I am done they will look remarkably like Tigers and I will not go blind messing with really small parts.

I just think Tami still has a good catalog. I think they are all getting pricy and some of the AM stuff is little better than the original but sets you back big $$$.

Considering my backlog it gets harder and harder to justify spending BIG $$ on new kits, I won my last contest with the old Revell 1/40 t-34/85. Stuck to the basics, used some imagination, add what I could form the plastic and brass shapes box, airbrushed carefully and nice finished product. Was it painful in spots, yes. Would I do another, probably not. The kit was the last one I built in my teens before I got catught up in sex, drugs, rock & roll, women, education and employment so it was more of a how much have I improved thing. Paid $10 for it. No AM, just some bits from the P&B box and some paint. I did cut off that horrible muzzle brake. And the outline matched the drawings I have.

Some of folks have the time and money to unvest in these super kits, either all in the box or lots of AM. Not everyone does. And I don't see relativley inexperienced people (read as newbies) dropping $45 on either kit just like that. Particularly with the Dragon kit there can be a frustration factor possible with all the stuff in the box.

So don't count Tamiya out just yet. Clearly people are buying thier kits (though why a modern French tank is way beyond me and stiffing folks on the PE to boot is dumb as as a rock. Who cares? It's not like the French are going to fight anybody with the damn things!)

They are easier to build meaning more will get compelted. Ask yourself this, of the kits that frustrated you and you gave up (temp or perm) how many were Tamiya? Dragon? Some of the early Dragons were almost unbuildable from what I've read. Never hear that about a Tamiya. AFV Club always seemed a little more odd to me making less mainstream vehicles (meaning less likely to sell as amny as a more known vehicle). Academy to a large extent is Tamiya, Too, meaning more mainstream subjects and easier assembly. Though they are definitely trying to go thier own way and I sicerely am waiting for the M3s and wish fervently for an early M7 on the same chassis.

Trumpeter is the real threat, becuase they are doing interesting subjects, offering interesting options like link and length vs continuous track, which is probably very good for a newbie he can try the link and length and when he balls it up can go back to old faithful without just trashing the kit or dropping $40 pn AM tracks, what happens when you ball up Dragon tracks? And the price point is dead on, enough to make you think it's not a toy, not enough to scare you away. Heck I'm gonna buy the KVs not just becuase of what they are but because I have some old Tamis here with really crappy tracks. Gee a nice model kit and an extra set of tracks to fix my old kit, kewl. For $25 list no less, $20 if I shop carefully.

Trumpeter is the real danger to Tamiya, they are tracking like Tamiya did. Plus they are going to be the quintuple threat, 1/16, 1/35, 1/48, 1/72,

And who is giving you rotor heads a Chinook in a scale where there are literally hundreds of products ready to go into that ultimate diorama? Troops, equipment, vehicles. From everyone else we get Tigers and Hanomags. Like there aren't enough already. It isn't just technical sophistication that wins the day. Imagination and ability to read the market. Though they might want to cut back on the parts count on the 1/72 Famo. My eyes are getting a bit tired.

Dragon while extremely technically competent is leaning dangerously close to the toy market. What's with all the prebuilt kits? And if you can put Zimmerit on the prebuilts let's see more in the kits. Do any of us buy the display models, I don't. I'd sooner hit myself in the head with a hammer, it would be like just giving up on my kits.

Plus all real men know that "some assembly required" isn't an obstacle. More like the green flag at the start of a race.

Frank

Tamiya horrid kits: M3 Lee, M3 Grant, any Stuart....wrong wheels, tracks that not only look like crap but have end connectors that don't connect to anything, wildly inaccurate turrets......

AM wrote in news:5KqdnWfW8eb_

AMEN BROTHER!!!!

" snipped-for-privacy@rcn.com" wrote in news:Zfadna snipped-for-privacy@rcn.net:

Not the point. They would go together. Even if inaccurate. I'm talking about getting people interested in the hobby. Yes those kits have serious problems. So you spend money on correction parts, wait 25 years for Acadmey to make better kits or you build it as is. Still waiting for another M3 Lee or Grant inaccurate or not.

But they build up. Much more important to a newbie than fanatics like us.

Other than some of the early indy link tracks I've yet to find a Dragon tank that was unbuildable. A few Alan kits were pretty bad as were some of the early Gunze handmedowns DML popped.

" snipped-for-privacy@rcn.com" wrote in news: snipped-for-privacy@rcn.net:

I´m not a Tanker, more of a plane man myself, but could it be true that I saw a Tamiya box (rather new looking) with an, as I believe, Italeri kit inside. I think it was a Raupenschlepper.

I couldn´t remember when (if ever) Tamiya reboxed another company´s kit.

Cheers,

Dennis

We have a Japanese Tamiya kit of a Eurocopter in our shop - it clearly has 'Made in Italy' on it and is the Italeri kit!