ARM: Is Dragon kicking Tamiya's butt?

snipped-for-privacy@bbbweb.com wrote in news: snipped-for-privacy@4ax.com:

I remember when the Buffalo was $34. Nice kit but not $34 woeth. And they sat on the shelves. And sat. And sat. I acquired 4 during that time, not one brand new retail, not one over $20.

Tamiya has a rather distorted view of the value of thier product, I think fostered by the quality, but not tempered by market realities. Man I'd like to be running the model kit division for a couple of years. Fix some of the molds, adjust the prices to be more competitive, use the profits to reinvest in new product or fix more of the older catalog, they could resume thier domination.

But then they would have to regard kits as more than a side line.

"me-me" wrote

The market will correct itself like it always does and always has. There will be those that fall out (remember Trimaster and the Gunze Sangyo "Hi-Tech" kits?), but new ones will arise (who had heard of Trumpeter 10 years ago?). The supply side will adjust to fit the demand side. These are businesses, just like any other. The assumption is that they are competent enough to know what to do to survive. If not . . .

KL

"me-me" wrote in news:Xns96E99BED87DD2memehotmailcom@

213.75.12.135:

Yeah the Autoblinda is $45 as is the Falco. I think that is ridiculous. Much as I would like to have a Falco, I'll wait till I can get one 2nd hand for less than $20. And while the Italian armored car is interesting, it ain't that interesting.

Ding, ding, ding. Ain't that the truth.

"Kurt Laughlin" wrote in news:lkR1f.123$t43.54 @trndny02:

Yeah, how many $45 AutoBlindas you think Italeri is gonna sell? The market will adjust in time.

"Gray Ghost" wrote

I have a 2-1/4 to 2-1/2 hour commute which is about to get a little longer with a new house (for us) that will require more fixing to get up to the level of this one. I work nine hour days, 8 days out of 10, in order to get alternate Fridays off. I chose not to have children and my wife's either live on their own or with their father. If I avoided television - and the computer - I could easily have 1-1/2 hours a night or more to build models or do research.

That's my day, but it's not really here nor there with regard to the subject at hand. I think the only issue is that you and I have a different idea of what "a reasonable amount of time" is.

If you wanted to have more time to relax and build models, you should've worn a rubber.

I understand fully. As just wrote elsewhere:

"The market will correct itself like it always does and always has. There will be those that fall out (remember Trimaster and the Gunze Sangyo "Hi-Tech" kits?), but new ones will arise (who had heard of Trumpeter 10 years ago?). The supply side will adjust to fit the demand side. These are businesses, just like any other. The assumption is that they are competent enough to know what to do to survive. If not . . ."

I have faith that the supply side - in aggregate - knows what it's doing.

Now looking over you posts, just what is it you are trying to say? Should DML and AFV Club be forced to make simpler kits? Is it OK that Tamiya makes simple kits but charges much more for them than others do for complex kits? Are you saying DML and AFV Club don't know how to run their businesses? What ARE you trying to say here?

KL

Model Point, Barrel Depot and Eduard.

The current DML super kits have the option of using plastic or the super detail parts that come in the box. As for cost, they're competitive with Tamiya's no frills kits....Tamiya Tiger at $40 with just plastic or DML Tiger at $40 with all the plastic PLUS all the extra goodies....so you might not use all the goodies in the DML kit, stick them in your spares box or even sell them at a swap meet.

You're right, I've been a little bit all over the place. I definitely think there is a place for the super kits and aftermarket (though some aftermarket is little better than the parts they replace). The superkits will always have a place, I like to think of them as graduate exams or technique tests.

But I go into the hobby shops and I don't see the kids in there like I used to. Even the guys with thier kids who are browsing don't seem to want take a shot at something. The kits just sit there, thier $30, $40, $50 price tags fading in the light. The DML kits with thier individual links just as lonely as the higher priced Tamis. The Trumpeter kits are there but they are still mixed in the same pile. A couple of looks at price tags they move on without checking the rest. If the base doesn't broaden kits will get more and more expensive. Frankly I don't need to buy any more kits, my hobby room looks like a well stocked hobby store.

I don't know how the shops floorplan this stuff. It just sits there. You really do need something like the old Monogram kits, simple but relatively accurate, inexpensive (I bought most of them as a kid, I don't see kids buying $40 kits today) gives a nice finished product with reasonable effort, remember the Paine inserts? So how do we get more people involved? It really concerns me to see those kits sitting there month after month.

The Trumpy kits are the potential breakout items. Cheap (comparitively), not overly complex, nice options (tracks).

I guess my point is while the superkits are great to aspire to I don't see someone doing a DML Tiger I Late (3 in 1) as thier first kit.

Why not? The basic kit is in the box and unlike Tamiya's LeClerc can but built complete OOB.

I have to agree with the kids and cards/RC in most local shops.

No problem, I just don't remember who makes what these days. I haven't kept up with all the latest air and armor goodies since people pay me stupid amounts of money to build WWII ships these days.

"Kurt Laughlin" wrote in news:ReT1f.1725$Iq3.601@trndny01:

Yes Kurt,

You are absolutely right, the market will correct itself. to be very honest I could live without Tamiya, Dragon/DML, Trump etc as long as there are other marks and makes that supply me with the things I want/need. In the near future that will probably be names I/we've never heard of yet.

But what bites me too is the fact that these absurd prices scare the new modelers away. I have worked in a model shop for about 10 years and I noticed that ever vewer youngsters came inthe shop for kits. AFAIK the reason for that is that kids are more interested in hobbies that don't take much time, effort, skill and MONEY.

Kids over here spend their few Euro's on cards, save for pc/xbox/ps games, but not 40 bucks on a kit. I could pay that amount, but not a kid.

I've had parents in the shop that wanted to buy a kit for their kid to start a wunderfull hobby, looked at them, turned around and walked away. Or went home with a cheap horrible kit for their kit to "start with" But these kits are so bad the kid tries it, doesn't get it together and decides modeling in not his thing. BANG! another soul lost! I've seen that so many times.

The same here goes for HO trains. Take ROCO, they made the most beautiful waggons 7 colors of plastic, 5 color printings, full scale length, true scale wheels, detailed interior. the works! but at a cost of some $60,- per waggon and more. And they made LOTS of them and couldn't sell them, but a simple, decent looking freight waggon, red with a gray roof and simle printing on the side for about $15-$20 they didn't have. Now customers are trying to save ROCO by ordering their own special editions. The last spasms of a dying company.

Dennis, ranting on!

Maybe 4 - 5 hours of work, maybe 3 - 4 days a week. (for the few hours I work, it pays well)

I dont own a big house (I will inherit a big one) and both kid's are grown and gone.

Between computer games and models, and what appears to be a new girlfriend, and taking care of my 83yr old father and two dog's I am set. Also add on 3 telescopes and an avid interest in astronomy too :)

But then I am happy driving a '93 Taurus, and wearing blue jeans all the time............

AM

A tad too long is an understatement !

The profile looks a little too thin as well though I dont have the ref's to check it precisely. (and I'm too lazy, just being too long was enough for me)

They have a similar problem with one of the Russian tank gun's too. (cant remember which one now)

AM

a new car and real jeans? damn.....

"Gray Ghost" wrote

I saw the same concerns expressed in 1979 IPMS mags - when I was still a kid - and purchasing back issues shows the same thing talked about 10 years before that and almost continuously since. Apparently, the hobby has somehow survived. From my observations at eight or ten years of AMPS shows, there aren't a lot of kids entering, but there are a lot of people in their

20s, and different ones each year. I think part of the phenomenon is that many times we tend to ignore the fact that we are getting older. We see 27-year-olds and think "guys our age" when in fact they are 15-20 years younger. When waxing philosophical we think "Gee, everybody I see is my age, and I'm old. The hobby is dying/We need to get more people involved."

And just as importantly, interesting subject matter that appeals to the experienced modeler.

Me neither, but that isn't the intended market of that kit or of the DML line as a whole. If Tamiya's intended market is first-time modelers through superior engineering and simplification, they are the one who is failing.

KL

The main thing with most after-market barrels is that they are not usually "drop-in" replacements for kit parts but require preparation. Jordi Rubio gives a lot of material at the rear for a haft that can be used to hold the barrel in place.

Measure them the other way around -- muzzle back to steps or collars, and you usually find them accurate to within a few tenths of a millimeter.

The fact that Dragon and AFV Club now include them as a matter of course is the innovation, especially at lower costs overall.

Cookie Sewell