ARM: Is Dragon kicking Tamiya's butt?

snipped-for-privacy@bbbweb.com wrote in news: snipped-for-privacy@4ax.com:

Thought i'd never see the day that that would happen. I really thought of Tam to be too proud a company to do that. Or is the plastics business for Tam going that bad?

From the smaller companies or the more related-to-eachother companies. I expected it but not Tam.

Maybe they shouldn't have made their kits too expensive. (my opinion) IIRC they almost doubled the prices for a simple 1/48th 109 or Spit over here. Not funny anymore. But maybe its just the fuel prices and the introduction of the Euro that f*cked up these prices, but i'm not sure

The Tam stringbag did cost NFL 129,- (old Dutch Guilders) before we got the EURO stuffed down our throats)) that would've been EUR 58,53 about

3-4 yrs ago. The thing now retails for EUR 79,95!!!!!!!!. And then they had the nerve to try to sell you some PE parts seperately!! As I said; Not funny anymore.

By the way the NFL 129,- was not funny to start with for a non limited production injection moulded 1/48th kit.

I could do without their little electric motors n spinning props too.

I just had to rant about that for a minute.

Cheers,

Dennis

"Gray Ghost" wrote

Two points:

I agree that Tamiya kits are invariably easy to build, probably the best engineered kits on the market. However, for the adult modeler that only goes so far because we know how to build and typically like more and better details and accuracy. Compare the SMO prices for Tamiya, DML, and AFV Club for Tiger Is: $40.46 - $42.46, $31.46 - $33.96, and $34.96 - $39.96 respectively. (As you know the latter two have the more and better stuff in them, so to match the stuff in all three would boost Tamiya's price even higher.) Is the premium for ease-of-build worth it to the adult modeler? I think more people are saying "No".

For the beginner modeler, I have always recommended the old Tamiya kits like the Tiger I, Panther IA, and King Tiger. This was based on their "cool" factor, ease-of-build, and just as importantly price. You can find these old buggers for $10 (or less) at most shows, which is pretty cheap for fun these days. However, when Tamiya itself re-releases these ancient (but far from evergreen) kits at nearly the same prices as their new kits ($24.46 for a halftrack, $18.96 for the M3 Lee, $24.46 for an SU-85, $22.96 for a KV-2) I don't see that they are really looking out for the newbie.

I don't know if it's what you meant, but it's Tamiya who is releasing the pre-built kits, not DML.

KL

They were good for their time and can be built into very good models now, you just need to do a little extra work.

DML does have a line of prebuilts in 1/144.

wrote

Well, I'd say to get them to even the level of a late '70's Italeri kit they would take a "lot" of work.

KL

That barrel sounds vaguely familiar. Let me guess, it's the barrel for the Pz. IIIL? If so, is there a better replacement and who makes it?

TIA

Note that I did point out Tamiya did redo its line of German armor, but as noted they left the rest to rot.

It's one thing to sell a bad kit of an M3 Lee or Grant (or Stuart) for $6.98, and another entirely to charge up to $22-24 for the same rotten kit with no changes.

Cookie Sewell

"me-me" wrote in news:Xns96E8A3941D5B2memehotmailcom@

213.75.12.135:

Actually Tami has been boxing Italeri kits for the home market for some time now. I know 'cause several years ago I thought I say a Tamiya M7 Priest. After I awoke from my fainting spell and read the small print I was not so happy. I've seen quite a few 1/72 Italeri aircraft in Tami boxes on the net. It is the same as Hase going with RoG. Or Monogram kits in Hase boxes in Japan. It's probably more profitable to pop and/or box them for thier respective domestic markets. The problem is probably not really profit uber alles but it is probably cheaper to leases molds bring them halfway around the world and pop and box there then import all the air in the boxes along with the plastic. I would think since the molds are more dense (weight per volume) than plastic it has got to be a real cost savings.

I kinda don't like the companies whoring thier molds around, each company does tend to have it's own character and you come to expect that in the box. And it is funny when they start exporting the kits. Hase kits in RoG boxes are cheaper than Hase kits in Hase boxes and you get more decal choices to boot. Go figure.

"frank" wrote in news:1128684028.973591.205250 @z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com:

Why as it that they simply could not get American tracks right. Sherman, Lee, Grant all have end connectors connecting nothing and it's not like there are aftermarket in 1/32. (I know Tamiya screwed that particular pooch, too). I mean even Airfix got the tracks right enough on thier Lee/Grant.

I just snagged a Mono M48A2 and realized that they had done the same thing on that one, not that having them right would have helped. They are barely a step above rubber bands, I winder if they thought about motorizing the thing. Fortunately it does appear to be 1/35. I have some extra (better looking) tracks around and they seem to fit just fine.

The German stuff is nice, too. Probably not for a modern day Wehrmacht or Waffen SS fanatic who couldn't buy an additional $130 dollars of aftermarket for it. But they fairly accurate, and if if one is adventurous it is possible to do nice jobs. The Shep Paine inserts are still around, I still think he did remarkable work on them. The burned out Pz IV D was and still is a stunner.

Frank

"Kurt Laughlin" wrote in news:Cnv1f.2$tU1.1@trndny07:

Depends. While the DML kits appear to be a marvel I think you will find that significant numbers of folks aren't obsessed with absolute accuracy, don't care about mixed media because they don't want to have to worry about 4 types of glue and really tiny parts in the long term are just gonna piss people off. DML's old tracks are to much, most other aftermarket is expensive. Future of that is better tracks like Tamiya continuoss ones, snap together injected plastic in the box or length and length with the rounded sections molded. With slide mold technology that should a no brainer. That and separate tires for the wheels to make painting easier.

More complicated and more parts don't really make it more appealing. Why do you think the prebuilts are selling. Who has that much time.

For the real "artists" out there yes there will always be a market as the kits become more exotic. But I'm going into shops in my area and all of the armor has dust on it. Give people something that they can feel a sense of accomplishment after building and that they can finish in a reasonable amount of time. (Meaning Trumpeter).

Aye and that's what I said. Trumpeter KV-2 $24.95 Tamiya 22.96. Frankly just on the box art the Trumpy should smoke Tamiya, never mind the superior fit and finish and accuracy of the Trump. They are the ones gonna smoke old Mr T.

I'm talking about the 1/72 and 1/144 kits. They have an ever expanding line of prebuilt, prepainted kits, some come on small but effective diorama bases.

snipped-for-privacy@aol.com wrote in news:1128727449.448498.324910 @g47g2000cwa.googlegroups.com:

I find it hard to believe they couldn't even fix the tracks for pete's sake. It's not like it isn't a long running joke. How much could new tracks cost them?

That kit has jumped $100 since I first built it 20 years go!

"Gray Ghost" wrote

Even so, the things are still cheaper. Even leaving off the fiddly bits - if that's your choice - still gives you a cheaper model. Yeah, you lose some detail, but we're talking about people who "aren't obsessed with absolute accuracy", so they shouldn't mind. You are exaggerating the types of glue needed, and IIRC the DML kits give you plastic parts with metal alternates. A grown-up should be able to handle that.

What does their old product have to do with what they are making now?

??? Continuous ones are never that great because the length can never be exactly right, meaning it'll look off. (If the goal is to avoid the need for aftermarket they have to be as good or better than aftermarket.) Link and length like ESCI/Trumpeter with the straight sections solid and links for the round areas would be nice, vice what you described.

A worthless gimmick. Less than worthless, actually. Tires are invaribly vulcanized to their hubs so there should not be any gap at all visible. Separate tires will have gaps. If you pre-paint, any cement leakage will spoint the paint job. You could assemble them first, but then you're back in the original one-piece painting situation.

People who don't watch television.

Well if "all" the armor has dust on it, I assume the Trumpeter kits do as well. Obviously the word hasn't gotten out. Those early Tamiya kits I mentioned would seem to fit your bill, but not at $22 per. . .

Maybe so, if no other reason than they are doing interesting subjects.

Oh. 1/72 and 1/144 are toys already - it makes no difference to me whether they're pre-assembled or not.

KL

We have a Tamiya P-47D on our shelves at £27.97 (about $51) and an Academy P-47D at £13.99 ($26). As far as I can see the Tamiya has a slightly more detailed cockpit but that's about it. I have built the Academy and it looks great. We stocked the whole line of Taiya aircraft when we opened and they have been the slowest selling range - we sell far more Special Hobby than we sell Tamiya!

Add to that the fact that we can only source Tamiya from a single supplier (not our normal supplier) who has a quite a large minimum order value and you can see why we are letting our Tamiya range run down somewhat!

Davind

I dont know, I cut it down to size. It was more like an 80 caliber length barrel.

Hey, I have On The Mark, Aber, Eduard, and other PE set's for Armour kit's, and it is a pick and choose kinda deal. I pick the parts out that will seem to have the best visual impact, and ditch the rest. Same with aircraft kit's, though with a resin cockpit for example, you are sorta stuck with using a good amount of it generally. Even more important to check ref's.....

AM

Well reboxing, re-issueing, mould leasing, private label production, etc., is about as old as there is production. So although I don't really like it, I don't really mind either. I just never thought that a world leader that really tought the world how to produce and market plastic model kits would do that. An then even with inferior Italeri kits. I'm just a little disappointed. I thought Tam stood above that.

And I wonder whether Tams sales got up with their electric motors, spinning props, Me 262's etc, with Kettenkrads for insane prices

I recently saw a new Italeri kit retailing over EUR 45.- thats more than $ 50.- Since when do Italeri kits kost more than EUR 25.-???

Shipping the moulds could be worth it when you send them to low wages countries. In the East wages could be some 10% from what they are here in western Europe. You can have tax advantages here AND there, materials and power would be cheaper too. But prices of the kits KEEP GOING UP. Somebody has to make me understand where those prices come from.

I could stand a little rise every year or so and I understand that these are inevitable, but not the ridiculous leaps the prices took the last few years.

I produce some kits and models my self and the prices for PU resin and Silicon rubber for example have risen some 10% in the last 5 years.

Nowadays I have more fun building older kits that require a little more work and/or modeling skills than the shake'n'bake Tams that take away all the charm of modeling (for me).

And I can keep on ranting and ranting and ranting.

But I won't, may be an another post!

Dennis

In fact, I think Tamiya was issuing other maker's kits domectically from their start.

Umm, there is no requirement that the prices of luxury goods like models track with the costs involved. They don't need a good reason to raise prices, in fact they don't need any reason at all. They can - and do - charge "what the market will bear". The prices come from the desire of everyone involved in the process to make as much money as possible. Capitalism, free markets, and all that.

KL

Besdies their pricing Tamiya shot themselves in the foot with the licensing fee they paid for the 1/32 F-16, I know a few folks that now won't buy a new Tamiya kit....a used kit off a show table yes but not a newly made one.