Jaguar and sidewinders

I've seen photos of the RAF SEPECAT Jaguars carrying sidewinders both
under and over the wings. Keeping in mind that there probably wouldn't
be a good reason for them to do so, has anyone ever seen a photo of
Jaguars carrying sidewinders over and under the wing at the same time?
Just idle thoughts. Thanks. cheers - Jim.
Reply to
Jim
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I think I've actually had occasion to see them doing once...and there is a good reason for it - like shooting at a guy above your horizon line. Provides a clearer field of view for the missile, and maybe a kinematic advantage...but that's a guess.
What was more interesting was watching them take off on a hot day in the High Desert...those things can't climb for dog-squat...
Reply to
Rufus
If so, then it was either a display aircraft or a test flight. Jaguars are no longer cleared to carry Winders *underneath* the wings.
The reason is that the Jaguar has very few pylons available. It does not have an internal ECM suite, so all countermeasures need to be carried externally. That accounts for all the underwing pylons - fuel tanks on the inboards with ECM and Phimat pods on the outboards. The centreline pylon is left for weapons such as Paveway II. It should be noted that a Jaguar is not capable of designating its own target as there is no more room for spike or TIALD pods. In that case they operate in bomber/spiker pairs. Never mind "one bomb - one target". With the Jaguar it is "one bomb - two aircraft"!
This leaves nowhere else to put any self-defence missiles, so they got shoved on overwing pylons.
In that position Winders are very susceptible to vibration and damage. The environment under the wings is quite benign in comparison. Aircraft will often return from missions with missiles that have damaged or missing wings. The situation became so bad that many wings had to be "de-modded" to make them more robust.
The Sidewinder "wing" is one of the four sticky-out bits at the back. The four sticky-out bits at the front are called "fins". On the trailing edge, the wing has an assembly called a "rolleron". This is an aileron with an airflow driven gyroscope in it. During captive flight the rolleron is locked. The sudden increase in G on missile launch unlocks the rolleron which then, due to gyroscopic precession, tends to resist any tendency of the missile to roll. Earlier missiles had complex and problematic electronic systems to control roll whereas the rolleron on a Sidewinder was cheap to build and easy to maintain.
The locking mechanism gave a few problems at first when it became unlocked in captive flight, so a modification was introduced to make the lock more positive. This was known, naturally enough, as MOD1. Later it was found that the locked rollerons would still chatter slightly in captive flight so further modifications, known as MOD2A, MOD2B etc were introduced throughout the fleet. The MOD1 assemblies are far more robust than the MOD2 ones and when Jaguars started to carry Winders overwing on a regular basis it was found that the airflow tended to tear out the MOD2 locks, especially on the starboard missile. This would leave the rollerons free to operate in captive flight (not to mention possibly causing damage to the fin) and would give the pilot cause for concern as the missile would tend to resist aircraft roll!
The problem was solved by reintroducing MOD1 locks, but this was an expensive business seeing as almost the whole fleet had been through the mod procedure at the time. It also presents some problems in that multiple build standards of wings are required, which is an administrative nightmare!
For modelling purposes, there is no difference between MOD1 and MOD2 wings, although if you wished to depict an early 90s Jaguar with a square chunk cut out of one of the wings on the starboard Winder and a gouge along the fin, that would be quite accurate!
One of the reasons that they don't carry Paveway III very often! The RAF Jaguars were always notoriously underpowered. The ones sold to Oman had more powerful engines, which have since been refitted to the RAF fleet, but they are still not good.
When Jaguars were first introduced to RAF Laarbruch, in Germany, it was found that at times a fully laden Jaguar would have to engage reheat momentarily in order to gain enough impetus to start taxying. The Jaguar pilots of II Sqn were outraged when a circular was passed around their crewroom from the Buccaneer crews of XV Sqn. "Jaguar pilots are respectfully requested not to use reheat while taxying past the Buccaneer line, as it frightens the cat!"
Reply to
Enzo Matrix
Agree with the majority of this but Jaguars can and have been fitted with TIALD so can designate their own targets.
Cheers,
Nigel
Reply to
Nigel Heather
******* Thanks guys that's a whole lot of good information. Much appreciated. So, I guess I have to take it that there are no photos showing a Jaguar carrying sidewinders both above the wing and beneath the wing at the same time? As noted it was just an idle thought in the 'what if' category. Again thanks for the input.
Cheers - Jim.
Reply to
Jim
That is true. In that case the TIALD is on the centreline and the Paveway(s) are on the inboard wing pylons. As there are no fuel tanks carried the radius of operations is *very* severely reduced. The options are to site your airbase very close to the area of operations (which is not recommended), to provide AAR tanker cover in hostile airspace (again, not recommended) or to fly a spiker/bomber pair.
In the context of a modern battlefield with extended transits to and from the combat area, the Jaguar is no longer cost-effective, which is one of the reasons that it is being replaced.
Reply to
Enzo Matrix
"when Jaguars started to carry Winders overwing on a regular basis it was found that the airflow tended to tear out the MOD2 locks, especially on the starboard missile."
why would this be so?????
Reply to
Seany
Spending more time turning one direction than the other?..I'd guess turning left.
Yes - the jets I'd have seen would have been testing, or performing some other such excersize.
Reply to
Rufus
This was a question that caused an awful lot of heads to be scratched and the A&AEE actually carried out a study into the matter.
The first thought was that the major problems occurred in the circuit. As Rufus pointed out, turning left was thought to be a factor and as most RAF airfields utilise an anti-clockwise circuit this was thought to be the answer. However it turned out that airflow stresses at circuit speeds were not high enough to damage the missile wings. All occurrences of damage occurred in high-speed straight and level flight.
The study was abandoned when it was found that the MOD1 locks solved the problem. To this day no one can explain why the starboard missile sustained the majority of damage.
Reply to
Enzo Matrix
"Enzo Matrix" wrote
Which is a bit of a shame really. Jags are my favourite among the 'modern' jets... not a boring grey one amongst them, iirc.
RobG
Reply to
Rob Grinberg
Sorry to disappoint you, Rob, but the last time I was at RAF Coltishall (I haven't set foot on an RAF base in over a year now. Am I happy about it? You betcha!), the line there was comprised of roughly equal numbers of green/grey cam and overall grey aircraft.
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Reply to
Enzo Matrix
The underwing 'Winders were during the 80s in Germany when the strike range for any Jag missions would be fairly short. So they occasionally could carry a self defence 'Winder under the wing, and bombs & tanks on the fuselage/innerpylons.
As things progressed, and the need to carry flare & ECM pods and have a longer range took up more pylons, the RAF activated the upper wing pylons for Desert Shield/Storm
Don't reply to the btconnect address - and remove nospam!!
Reply to
Dave Fleming
Having answered Rob's comment about grey Jaguars, I have been a little concerned about the instructions in some decal sheets that I have seen. Each one of them seems to represent the Sidewinder missiles in use on RAF aircraft as coloured being white. This is not true and the decal manufacturers really should have known better.
If you will indulge me, I'll provide a little information on UK Sidewinder colours.
The original missiles used by the RAF and Royal Navy were AIM-9Bs and AIM-9Gs, which *were* white. The introduction of the AIM-9L and the procurement of components from BGT rather than Raytheon, led to all operational 9Ls being painted BS381c/627 Light Aircraft Grey. However the situation is a little more complex as there are various build standards of missile which have different colours.
_Operational Missile_
The Sidewinder is not a round - it is an assembly. It can be broken down into its components, some of which have different colours. Have a look at
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which shows the missile quite well. I'm not sure why it is sat beside an A-10, IIRC the 9Ls were used by the US Navy.
The front section is called the GCS or Guidance Control System. As you can see it is a dark grey. The GCS is not painted and this is the colour of the metal, which can have a metallic sheen to it. There is a BS381c/412 Dark Brown band (signifying a low explosive hazard) at the rear of the GCS.
The next section is the AOTD or Airborne Optical Target Detector (some authorities use "Active" rather than "Airborne"). In the photograph, this is the component which is hidden under the dayglo wrap. There is a very good reason for this. The side of the component has eight round windows
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which may emit laser light. The AOTD is also unpainted, although the grey of the metal is somewhat lighter than that of the GCS and there is no metallic sheen. There are no explosives in this component and so there are no hazard bands.
The next section is the Warhead. This is painted Light Aircraft Grey, with a BS381c/3576 Golden Yellow band to signify high explosive.
The remainder of the missile body is made up of the Rocket Motor. Again Light Aircraft Grey but this time with a BS381c/412 Dark Brown hazard band.
The fins are attached to the GCS and are bare metal, with a similar colour to the AOTD.
The wings are at the rear of the missile. They are Light Aircraft Grey. However, unlike the US missile in the photo, the leading edges of the wings are a very shiny dark metallic grey. Originally the wings were designed to be used for one flight only and then discarded. The RAF cannot afford this policy and so, as the surface of the wing is made from an ablative material, the leading edges are coated with a material known as "Belzona", to prevent damage from the airflow. As shown in the first picture, the rollerons on the trailing edge of the wings are bare metal and can be quite shiny.
_Acquisition Missile_
The acquisition missile or "Ackwee" is used for training. It is simply an inert body tube with an operational GCS fitted on the front. There are no wings or fins fitted, as there are no mountings for them. The body tube is painted BS381c/113 Deep Saxe Blue.
_Dummy Missile_
The Dummy missile is totally inert and is used for displays. Next time you see an RAF aircraft at an airshow which is carrying Sidewinders, they will be dummy missiles. The missile is painted overall Light Aircraft Grey. The GCS may be a real one which has been expended (in which case it will be its normal colour) or it may simply be a shape (in which case it will be LAG). All the bands on this missile will be BS381c/105 Oxford Blue, to signify inert.
The Dummy missile may or may not be certified for flight. If it is not, it will have "NOT FOR FLIGHT" liberally plastered all over it, especially on the wings. The wings of a dummy missile which *is* cleared for flight will have been taken from operational stock.
_Safety Devices_
The Sidewinder has a number of safety devices which are fitted when on the ground. The first is the "noddy cap", which fits over the GCS. This is yellow plastic, but they get very dirty indeed, so a yellow/grey mix would suffice. It *should* have a Remove Before Flight flag attached to the front but the noddy caps get pretty battered (linies tend to play football with them while the jet is away) and the flag is usually the first thing to go.
The second safety device is a wrap-around cover over the AOTD. As shown in the first photo, they are dayglo orange and are usually kept quite clean. These also have an RBF flag attached.
The final safety device is the arming key. This is a red T-shaped key on the underside of the warhead, also fitted with a RBF flag.
The LAU launcher also has an arming key with an RBF flag. Look at the second picture and you will see a device on the side of the LAU. The arming key fits here.
These safety devices are fitted at *all* times while the missile is loaded to an aircraft on the ground.
Acqui missiles have the noddy cap and LAU key while dummy missiles may only have the LAU key.
I hope this short article has been of some use. The link below is to a colour chart showing BS381c colours.
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Reply to
Enzo Matrix
Hi Enzo,
Thanks for a very informative post, this is one of those posts that makes putting up with all the usual c*#p that comes in here worthwhile.
Happy modelling Ant
"Standing on the shoulders of giants"
Reply to
Ant Phillips
Have to concurr with Enzo there - the last ones though my line were a mix of grey and green ones. Function drives form when it comes to staying alive.
Reply to
Rufus
I'll add a bit of what I've observed -
Enzo Matrix wrote:
Both the L and M are used by the USN - they are externally indistinguishable for the purposes of discussion.
The GCS of USN missiles is actually a very dark anodic olive green sort of color when viewed closely. The color is anodized directly onto the seeker head - hence the metallic sheen.
TDD - or "Target Detect Device" on this side of the pond. Not anodized on most of the examples I've seen...sometimes painted. But I suspect only for test or training.
The fins are also unanodized, cast metal - from the look of them.
The USN still has a smattering of white wings in inventory. It is not unusual to see a missile with a combination of white/grey wings if that is what is available. They can and are used repeatedly - not just once. USN wings are covered with what looks like an ablative material from the leading edge to the trailing edge - no "Belonza". The rollerons are of the color of polished stainless steel - while the "spurs" within them are a bit less polished.
USN CATMs are similar, with the exception that they will usually mount both wings and fins, or fins only if a set of wings are not available. The TDD in this case is also a dummy, and is probably where I recall seeing them painted from.
Commonly refered to as a "blue tube"...pilots hate them as all they are is dead weight. All of the ones I've encountered are flight worthy.
Good info.
Reply to
Rufus
)c: damn, another fantasy out the window... but at least some of the Jags are still holding out. (c:
RobG
Reply to
Rob Grinberg
"Enzo Matrix" wrote
Thanks for the post Enzo - most informative. It's that kind of info that's so hard to get unless you can talk to an ex-serviceman - and most of them don't try to hard to remember their time 'in'.
RobG
Reply to
Rob Grinberg
"Enzo Matrix" wrote
As mentioned by Rufus, this probably dyed chromic anodizing.
What is in the GCS that is explosive? Note that the US ones shown in your referenced photos do not have a band. I'm figuring that if the UK considered an item explosive, the US would too.
BTW-1, ever hear of an orange band on UK nukes to indicate radioactive materials? See:
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US weapons do not carry additional bands, only "destruct dots" around the core.
BTW-2, what are the white X's (over red triangles?) in the photo above?
There are US FED-STD-595 equivalents to all of those used for weapon marking, for those interested.
Thx, KL
Reply to
Kurt Laughlin
Gentlemen take a bow. Between Enzo and Rufus that's a whole lot more than I ever knew about Sidewinder colours. My latest info is a SAM article in the "Things Under Wings" series.
Bill Banaszak, MFE
Reply to
Mad-Modeller

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