short beta for 2009

A shorter beta could also mean that they missed their deadline. Maybe fixing old things took more time than creating new ones. Just speculating.

Deelip Menezes

well the response to my questions hardly made it worthwhile writing...

I guess if we cant get some discussion going about some thing as important as this to users this place is pretty much beyond revival..

later, Neil

One thing you may not have known is that this past weekend was a holiday weekend in the `states'. Many people probably didn't even see your post until this morning.

As far as your topic goes, I think the shorter beta period is just a recognition of the fact that it is of limited value. IMO, the folks who really pound on the software and find the bugs are too busy doing their thing to participate in the beta program. Sounds cynical, but the fastest way to get a stable new release may be just to fling it out there and then be reactive.

jk

Hey, just saw your post this morning, so thought I would pipe in here.

As some of you know, I have been active in the Beta test arena for some time, last year finishing #3, so I guess I have an opinion from the active side of things. The main reason I participate in the Beta testing is to be able to try the new version on our stuff the way we like to use it. Anything I can find during that phase of the program has a better chance of getting fixed before we use it for real. And yes, I have seen several issues fixed before release. Many are not, for sure, but I keep track of what I turn in and I see some of them fixed even before Beta 2 or Beta 3. So a blanket statement that the program doesn't do any good is absolute rubbish.

Now, a personal question - is it worth my time? Sometimes I wonder, when I see the same problems not fixed year after year. But then again, it's my time, and my choice of whether or not I work on the new stuff, looking for both how it works, and how it doesn't work. It's a time to see what's coming up and whether it will benefit us or not, and it's fun to try some of the stuff we don't normally use. I enjoy the mining - looking for those nuggets that are there. I also enjoy the challenge of trying to find errors - kind of like working a puzzle. I guess that's my way of relaxing. Sick, eh?? :-))

As for the shortened time frame, I'm not sure what I think. I like the idea that the end is sooner in that it may cause people to work on it harder & faster, thereby allowing more time to fix the problems before release that are discovered. On the other hand, it may not produce as many SPRs as there isn't as much time to work through it. I guess time will tell if shorter is better or worse. If the common attitude is that the program doesn't do any good, then I guess shorter won't hurt a bit.

These are my thoughts - thanks for asking. :-)

WT

A very short answer.

In the beginning (1995) there was SW. There was no Beta and it (SW) was good. And SW saw this and restrained from releasing any new feature until it was ready. Not only would they not release it, they wouldn't even acknowledge it existed. And Pro/E users saw SW as a deficient runt and denigrated it endlessly. But SW then had a reputation for stability, small files and speed. And it needed half the computer that Pro/E did. And users saw this and flocked to it.

Then a corporate buyer entered the fray, made many people rich and demanded more profits, products and pizzaz. And SW suffered and bugs crept in. But to make some happy for the moment they opened up beta to the masses. If they could just find the bugs that most didn't like everyone would be happy. And they had schedules to meet with volunteer help. The schedules were met, but the help's expectations weren't. And competitor grew up alongside SW and began introducing new features to distract SW from their own path. And SW wandered down many byways, but never quite finished many of the features. And it was not so good as before. But nobody could say so because it would displease corporate buyer.

Finally, on another note. Do users really have to have 2009 ready to go in eight weeks? Wouldn't they rather have it ready to go when it is ready? Was this an enhancement request?

TOP

apparently this request is something the CEO well knows about and he thanks us for telling him...

now you might ask if being a customer conscious chap ( or should I say licensee tolerant chap? ) he should be explaining to the eager believers just how this beta shortening is going to deliver a higher standard of product come release day.

plainly he has confidence that his fellow workers have substantially improved their internal game to the point where beta no longer needs to struggle on finding the trivial glitches that seem to number 2000 or so each release despite the ongoing quality improvement program -(is there one?)..

so whats he saying?

-they cant be stuffed chasing and fixing bugs despite what you told them?

-they are doing the testing ourselves and they just want you to play with it a bit and see if you like the new icons?

-the product is twice as good as its ever been so they only need to spend half the time finishing it? they know you know its crap, so they arent going to pretend they fix stuff you find in beta before release anymore? they are comfortable finding the bugs later at your expense and making you wait even longer in the cycle for a useable standard?

doesnt someone actually have to front up and explain to the SW user base just whats going down here actually? doesnt matter so much to me as a solo waiting each time for sp5 but what say you have a 100 seats? wouldnt you like to know ahead of time that there is or isnt going to be bottom line consequences of this decision if you go ahead and install it in good faith at sp2..

doesnt this just set SW up for a whole lot of flack from already disenchanted users? if you ask me the likelihood this strategy will address and reverse the quality decline is quite small. with SW already under the microscope for their UI (mis)adventure and perhaps feeling the result in the subs pocket it had better be an outstanding success or the new CEO is going to find his ass on the street a lot sooner than he would have imagined and perhaps looking at a 'blank screen' asking himself how it all went wrong

Neil

If ten percent of the time is spent writing code and ninety percent of the time is spent debugging it then we should be getting a new release every 8.9 weeks.

You can't go by what they say, only by what they do.

TOP

Damned if I know. It's all speculation till the bits hit the disk. I've got too much work to do and too little time to worry about where SW is going next. I don't have time to figure out how to set up SW08, let alone speculate about SW09.

Jerry Steiger

Hey Top.. sorry man,...but over the years I'm REALLY SICK AND TIRED OF PEOPLE MAKING BLATANT and FALSE STATEMENTS about Pro/e or why Pro/e users use SW or why they went away from using Pro/e. Anyway, as a long-time Pro/e user and long-time SW user, your statement is TOTALLY INCORRECT!

Pro/e stability, reliability, performance, consistency... is MUCH BETTER than SolidWorks! Pro/e files were/are (but have increased) SMALLER, than SolidWorks. Pro/e software works BETTER then SolidWorks on LESS expensive hardware, PERIOD!!!!!

And, to be clear,.. I DID NOT FLOCK TO SW because of the above... as a independent contractor, I saw NEW clients considering and moving away from AutoCAD (as I had with my Acad/MDT license) and they did NOT want to invest into Pro/e because of the cost (at that time, ~2-5X more expensive), learning curve and the ASSHOLE PTC sales people! IMHO (as a 17+ year consultant), Pro/e users and companies who did not know how to properly use Pro/e, went to SW. Or, they NEVER needed the power of Pro/e and SW fits their needs much better!

Sadly, ( backdraft or domino effect?) I see many clients getting themselves into the same shitty position using SolidWorks as they did with Acad/MDT years ago.

SolidWorks is a mainstream modeler... it's average... that is, it's basically a chevy or ford .. for all. Unfortunately, SolidWorks is basically BETAWARE,.. it's riddled with bugs, inconsistency, poor performance, lack of originality, lack of direction, half baked features and functions... and they have consistently proven this year after year after year,.....

Am, I annoyed... yes... yes I am! SolidWorks has made a hell of a lot of money off it's users and gained free support over the users,.. and all they have proved is that they are no different than AutoDesk or any other big company putting out HALF BAKED BETA WAREl!

=2E. (ok, well,... I feel much better now!) 8^)

ProE sux

Pro/e stability, reliability, performance, consistency... is MUCH BETTER than SolidWorks! Pro/e files were/are (but have increased) SMALLER, than SolidWorks. Pro/e software works BETTER then SolidWorks on LESS expensive hardware, PERIOD!!!!!

And, to be clear,.. I DID NOT FLOCK TO SW because of the above... as a independent contractor, I saw NEW clients considering and moving away from AutoCAD (as I had with my Acad/MDT license) and they did NOT want to invest into Pro/e because of the cost (at that time, ~2-5X more expensive), learning curve and the ASSHOLE PTC sales people! IMHO (as a 17+ year consultant), Pro/e users and companies who did not know how to properly use Pro/e, went to SW. Or, they NEVER needed the power of Pro/e and SW fits their needs much better!

Sadly, ( backdraft or domino effect?) I see many clients getting themselves into the same shitty position using SolidWorks as they did with Acad/MDT years ago.

SolidWorks is a mainstream modeler... it's average... that is, it's basically a chevy or ford .. for all. Unfortunately, SolidWorks is basically BETAWARE,.. it's riddled with bugs, inconsistency, poor performance, lack of originality, lack of direction, half baked features and functions... and they have consistently proven this year after year after year,.....

Am, I annoyed... yes... yes I am! SolidWorks has made a hell of a lot of money off it's users and gained free support over the users,.. and all they have proved is that they are no different than AutoDesk or any other big company putting out HALF BAKED BETA WAREl!

.. (ok, well,... I feel much better now!) 8^)

Jerry-this may be the subject for a new thread, but I'll jump in here anyway. You have hit the nail on the head about why I am so pissed off about the new interface for '08. I find it insulting in a way that after 10 years using the software, I have to figure out a new way of using it. There is indeed a TON of set up involved in using SW 08 productively. Once you do there does seem to be some productivity improvement, but my bottom line is that it's just different-not better.

In my industry, I am usually so busy that I deeply resent needing to step back with a new release and re-invent the way I operate.

`rant off'.

jk

?????

So Jon what does your engineering department do?

EXACTLY what lies Jon? When are you going to post examples?

I don't have the same beginner problems you were having with SolidWorks. I told you to post specifics and an experienced user could help you but you never did so I came to the conclusion you were as usual, being disingenuous.

All that time you were claiming that YOU hated the rollback bar because YOU had to determine customer design intent and YOU make arbitrarily changes to customer solids. Then YOU let it slip that your company has an engineering department.

So what exactly is your engineering department doing while you are trying to determine customer design intent, hacking and whacking customer supplied solid models?

Have they forged quotes and posted them to these groups like you have?

Did they forge posts under multiple fake names to your Novedge interview comments section like you did?

Have they used multiple fake names to post to blog's, newsgroups and forums they have been kicked off of like you?

Have they misrepresented themselves, their experience and what they do on numerous occasions like you?

Have they recommended multiple CAD, CAM, CAD/CAM programs only to call the programs crap once they get some seat time like you have?

He's Franco Folini, Right?

The guy who mistakenly thought once you made an agreement with someone you would live up to your end of the bargain.

Tom

EXACTLY what lies Jon? When are you going to post examples?

I don't have the same beginner problems you were having with SolidWorks. I told you to post specifics and an experienced user could help you but you never did so I came to the conclusion you were as usual, being disingenuous.

All that time you were claiming that YOU hated the rollback bar because YOU had to determine customer design intent and YOU make arbitrarily changes to customer solids. Then YOU let it slip that your company has an engineering department.

So what exactly is your engineering department doing while you are trying to determine customer design intent, hacking and whacking customer supplied solid models?

Have they forged quotes and posted them to these groups like you have?

Did they forge posts under multiple fake names to your Novedge interview comments section like you did?

Have they used multiple fake names to post to blog's, newsgroups and forums they have been kicked off of like you?

Have they misrepresented themselves, their experience and what they do on numerous occasions like you?

Have they recommended multiple CAD, CAM, CAD/CAM programs only to call the programs crap once they get some seat time like you have?

He's Franco Folini, Right?

The guy who mistakenly thought once you made an agreement with someone you would live up to your end of the bargain.

Tom

Whoa Paul,

Read it again. I said nothing negative about Pro/E unless you think I am comparing the two which I am not. If you say I was TOTALLY wrong in what I said then you are saying Pro/E users were praising SW at the time. They weren't.

I was comparing SW then with SW now.

1. At that time SW files were in general smaller than Pro/E or many other CAD system files in general.
2. SW at that time did have a reputation for stability. Nothing there about Pro/E not having stability.
3. SW did not require the resources that Pro/E did in that time frame. The opposite is true now not just for Pro/E but also UG and perhaps CATIA..
4. SW was fast. My first SW machine was a 166Mhz Pentium with 128MB of ram and a 300MB hard drive running on NT. By 98+ I needed a 300Mhz machine to keep up. I suspect Pro/E would beat SW in any speed test today.

TOP

When they are selling as many new seats as they say they are this doesn't matter except to loyal customers. The funny thing is that with some of the old standby CAD systems that haven't changed much over the years the old users just keep getting better. SW likes to throw away that experience at regular intervals with interface changes and functionality swapping.

TOP

Hey Paul,

Oh,.. my bad...hmm... ? I re-read it and I,...re-read it again... and, still see the bash.

It's interesting to me because, in 1999 (using SW98+ on the same computer as Pro/e),.. I actually tested, reviewed and praised SW for a few of my clients (who were considering Pro/e), and imho (then and now, hands down) SW was the right fit for them! And, as a Pro/e user,.. I was happy to see the competition.

I've used them side by side and I know the difference... then/now... Pro/e is still better over SW... or,... maybe,.. it sux less, if you will.

=2E. (i'm feeling sleepy,... dave.... daisy, daisy,...

EXACTLY what lies Jon? When are you going to post examples?

I don't have the same beginner problems you were having with SolidWorks. I told you to post specifics and an experienced user could help you but you never did so I came to the conclusion you were as usual, being disingenuous.

All that time you were claiming that YOU hated the rollback bar because YOU had to determine customer design intent and YOU make arbitrarily changes to customer solids. Then YOU let it slip that your company has an engineering department.

So what exactly is your engineering department doing while you are trying to determine customer design intent, hacking and whacking customer supplied solid models?

Have they forged quotes and posted them to these groups like you have?

Did they forge posts under multiple fake names to your Novedge interview comments section like you did?

Have they used multiple fake names to post to blog's, newsgroups and forums they have been kicked off of like you?

Have they misrepresented themselves, their experience and what they do on numerous occasions like you?

Have they recommended multiple CAD, CAM, CAD/CAM programs only to call the programs crap once they get some seat time like you have?

He's Franco Folini, Right?

The guy who mistakenly thought once you made an agreement with someone you would live up to your end of the bargain.

Tom