Looking for prototype info

Probably the best thing is to go get some books on the subject.

a good place to find used books - do the advanced search with logging railroads as the seach subject. You'll probably find a good selection for under $10 a book. Some books liike the Kinsley books are a bit more expensive tho.

-- Yeppie, Bush is such an idiot that He usually outwits everybody else. How dumb!

But in lieu of books, The Reading Company Hysterical Society acquired one of the Cartech 2' gauge loco's. Let me see if i can find a pic... Talk amongst yerselves... well i can't find anything at the moment but you might be disappointed here. They used little Whitcombs i think, no frills, and they used 2" rope for couplers believe it or not. The trackage went all over the property and some might still be in.

Thanks for your help guys.. Just to let you know I'm not sitting around doing nothing while you guys are doing my research. I was looking through the Library of Congress yesterday and I found this photo of a

1920 vintage Colorado mine tram. I can't figure out if it's dual gauge, maybe 30" and 15" or if it's Lionel three rail.

It looks kinda strange to me, though I'm not an experianced narrow gauger.

Any ideas what it is and how it was used?

Bob

It looks like it's a funicular railway. This is supported by the steep incline shown, and the cable between the two nearer two rails. A common funicular arrangement is two use three rails, expanding to four at the midpoint to allow the up and down cars to pass, while saving the cost of the extra rail for the rest of the incline where the two cars can never be side by side. Geezer

There is nothing i like more than collective cognizant research!

It would help to respond if you can provide a little more info on what you envision.

The RR in the name B&L RR & Mining Co. implies a main line of some length, which in turn tends to rule out the more tiny 0-4-0T industrial types with limited fuel and water capacity, and perhaps lacking air brakes, that never stray very far from the mine or factory. Similarly, 24" gauge is large enough to have been practical for line haul RRs, while 15" gauge was usually only used at the industrial site and very rarely strayed more than a mile or two away.

Timber in economic sizes and quantities is big. While there were many 3" gauge logging lines, I'm only aware of a very few 24" gauge operations and can't think of any 15" gauge logging lines. How do you plan to have logging on your system?

A quick scan of the all time list of Heislers shows all but two 30" gauge locos for Lukens Steel were 36" gauge or wider. The Climax list has one confirmed 30" gauge unit and one possible 24" gauge loco, all the rest being

35" gauge or larger. On the other hand there were many 24" Shays, but none much smaller. (Perhaps the location of the gears between the wheels on Heislers and Climaxes limited the minimum practical gauge?) For rod locomotives, 24" gauge locos typically are still generally proportioned like their larger sisters but with somewhat oversized cabs, while 15" gauge locos tend to be less like scaled-down larger locos and are more often more unique in appearance, lacking cabs, etc. Are you considering using available G gauge geared or rod engines for you system? How much rebuilding and modification do you plan on doing? Or do you plan to completely scratch build?

What sort of rolling stock do you envision? The Maine 2-footers had small versions of regular 8-wheel passenger and freight cars, while most 15" gauge industrial lines tended to only use specialized 4-wheel cars. For the latter, the Bachmann 1:20.3 side dump and V-dump 36" gauge cars would pass as smaller versions on a 24" or 15" gauge line, and their chassis parts could be used to scratch build many other 4-wheel types. Again, do you plan to do minor or major mods or build from scratch?

Book and other reference recommendations will depend on your answers to the above.

Geezer

Geezer, Where do I start... First the B & L is in the middle of the phosphate mining industry. Florida produces 75% of all the phosphate used in the US and 25% of the world supply. I got open pit mining all around me...

The B & L is a mixed reveune system from the 1890 - 1920 era and will be hauling phosphate, lumber, sugar, seafood, and pine neddles... Yes pine needles. I am about 15 miles from the old Yulee suger mill, (another great possibility for a NG railroad). The possibilitise are endless. It's just a matter of where to start.

That being said, I plan to start my NG building with a open pit phosohate mine. That can provide plenty of rail and operation, plus feed my main line. I have found some photos of an 1890 vintage mine not far from here. Not good photos but good enough to work with.

This will probably envolve building a small 040 15" gauge steam loco and maybe a dozen tipper cars or hoppers. Cars will be small 4 wheel chassies and run from the pit to a loading facility of some kind. I will be scratch building most of the equipment. Retirement dictates scratch building...lots of time and dam little money...

Keep in mind this will be built in the sand...Now it becomes a construction problem. It's going to be an interesting challange to say the least. Think about it. You dig a hole in the ground in the middle of your back yard and fill it with track, cars, a few buildings and some trees and shrubbs. Then you get 4" of rain, that only happens daily from June till about October, now you have a pond.

Railroading in the garden is becoming quite an experence. After maney years of building model railroads indoors this outside thing has become a learning experence like I never imagined I would face. Most garden railroades are gardeners with some trains in there garden. I am a railroader using live plants for the details.

The logging I mentioned will probably become a lumber mill operation, that will be better suited to 15" modeling, but that's for later on down the line.

I like your Bachman idea for cars. I will take a look at them. That might work.

Enough wind from me. Thanks for your help.

Geezer wrote:

Bob,

Here are some tidbits that may be of use.

Most info I have for US 15" gauge deals with amusement park RRs. I have a Bethlehem Steel "Mine and Industrial Trackwork" catalog from the 1960's; the smallest gauge they list is 18" (although they would probably do smaller on a custom order). I think the cost threshold for choosing rail over other means of conveyance has risen over the years, so it is probable a similar catalog from 1900 would address smaller gauges.

There was a 20" gauge mining RR named (at least for part of its existence) the Coronado RR at Clifton, AZ. According to the surviving steam data base at

four of these locomotives still exist. You may want to search for more info on this line for ideas. I believe there is a good description of the operation in David F. Myrick's book "Railroads of Arizona Vol III", but I don't have a copy in my library. Several of these locos were built by Porter, and they are listed in the all-time Porter roster in the book "Porter Steam Locomotives" now offered by the NMRA, but I didn't see any photos of the 20" locos in a scan of the book.

Some very small gauges were used during WWI in the trenches in Europe. You may want to search for information on the trench railways / WWI military RRs and their locomotives for ideas. I believe that a small gauge military RR was also used during the earlier Second Boer War. If you are including 1920 in your modeling period, having a returned war surplus loco on the line would be a good story.

For Gn15 modeling ideas, see Carl Arendt's micro railway site at

Ian Holmes also has a great site with lots of British 15" gauge prototype and Gn15 model pix at Geezer

A nice idea, Geezer, but the WW1 trench railways in Europe were 60cm gauge - or 1'11.5" if you prefer imperial measurements! The French originated the concept using equipment built by Decauville, and all the other major combatants followed suit, to allow "interchange", for the want of a better word.

But as I said, the idea is a good one, and prototypical as well, as a number of surplus US Army 2-footers saw civilian service in the US after the war.

As for the Boer War, most narrow gauge in "Serth Effrika" in those days was 610mm/2'. (Yeah, I know, the SAR was narrow gauge too, but they regarded the 3'6' as "standard"...

In the UK, Woolwich Arsenal had an extensive 18" gauge internal railway, but I doubt that this would be of interest to Bob, as the locos and stock were very English in appearance.

All the best,

Mark.

Thank you all for your ideas. I thnik I'll pass on the WWI stuff... to dam noisey... I have found some sources, I hope, on local Florida phosphate hard rock mines. Lots of NG stuff right here. All I need now are some photos to work from. Next will be a nice lumber mill..

Thank you all

Bob CEO/Ditch Digger B & L Railroad & Mining Company