Why is called HO?

By law, I wrote. Half a century went by before people even thought of using the metric system in everyday use. When I was a child people still bought two pund of potatoes (or the Danish equivalent) or a 'pot' of sweet milk. In the 1970'ies, lumber was still bought in feet and inches (albeit Danish inches 'tomme', 1 tomme = 26.18mm).

One day we made parts in inches, the next day in mm. Some parts were measured in mm but had Whitworth thread, so yes, literally speaking.

In France yes, and a few in Germany.

But most of Germany is 1:45. The NEM standards states 1:45 as the scale ration for 0, see

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Also have a look at
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which is one of the largest

0 scale 'Verein's in Germany.
Reply to
Erik Olsen DK
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Sure - it didn't matter so much in the first half of the twentieth century - potatoes didn't need the precision or interchangabilty of mechanical parts and timber is generally cut to precise size on site.

Two sets of precision measuring equipment required and the ongoing chances of using the wrong one time after time, plus you create yet another variation on Imperial nuts and bolts on top of all those different types for every specialist branch of engineering.

OK, it seems you know better than I do/did. :-)

Regards, Greg.P.

Reply to
Greg Procter

Greg Procter wrote in news: snipped-for-privacy@ihug.co.nz:

That depends a lot on how precise you _need_ to be. An adjustable spanner is an adjustable spanner - it care little whether the gap is

7/16ths of an inch or 11 mm or somewhere in between.

I don't know how long we've used metric measures over here in Norway. A long time - probably about as long as Denmark.

Some metric units are in universal use. It would be weird to us to start measuring weight in pounds and stones and centuryweights and what not. Same with celsius instead of fahrenheit.

But we still call a yardstick "en tommestokk" (an inch stick ...), and we still buy lumber in standard sizes we call "2x4 inches" (which is approximately 54x 102mm) or "1 1/2x2" (approximately 38 x 54 mm) etc.

The _standard dimensions_ of lumber doesn't have to be measured in metric units.

I don't need to know how many millimeters wide a flathead screwdriver is - I just need to have one among the set I have that will fit the screws I use at any given time.

Or when I buy ground beef in the store - I just look at the packs and decides "that ones seems to be about the right size for making spaghetti for 4 people". It may be 420 grams or 510 grams - "about the right size" is close enough for practical use.

There is no need to actually sell ground beef packages in "standard metric sizes". The package have to be labelled with weight, both the actual price and the price per kilo. That allows direct comparison of price per kilo between stuff sold by two different companies.

Also it matters little if you buy one gallon of milk or whether you buy four liters of milk. Four liters is a little more than one gallon, but who cares ?

Where metric shines is where you need to do a bit of calculations.

Especially calculations where different parts are measures in different units - e.g one part is measured in centimeters, one in meters.

It is a heck of a lot easier to just move the comma one position right to convert from centimeters to millimeters or or two positions left to convert from centimeters to meters and then just add the numbers together than it is to multiply by 12 to go from feet to inches or divide by 16 or some such number to go or from some kind of floating ounces to some kind of gallon or whatever.

Metric is good for ease of calculation. But there is nothing about measuring stuff in metric units that makes the measure inherently more _precise_ than a measure given in imperial units. A measure of 35 milliliters (3.5 centiliters, 0.35 dl, 0.035 liters) is not necessarily more precise than one of say 1.2000456 gallons.

But we are getting pretty far off the topic of model trains. Time to go get some lumber and start building that layout!

Smile, Stein

Reply to
Stein R

On Thu, 30 Nov 2006 07:48:25 +1300, I said, "Pick a card, any card" and Greg Procter instead replied:

It's a hobby, mate. A hobby. Fun. You know. Get together with friends and discuss trains, not the number of rivets used on a boiler. Just have fun, not anger over whether or not someone "gets" what you're discussing or whether or not you're right or wrong.

You can't ever find where I have demanded you not count rivets. However, I can and will laugh my head off over your mind numbing attempts to bring the entire hemisphere, no the world, over to your way of thinking and none other.

Now go push a train around in circles. If you didn't fuss over the exactness of the scale, you might actually enjoy the hobby.

And thus the rivet counters remain digit counters. Why am I not surprised?

-- Ray

Reply to
Ray Haddad

If I have a worn threaded hole disappearing into the block of my alloy motor and two bolts of the correct length and diameter but with differing threads in the bucket, I'm in trouble! If they were standard metric bolts I'd only have a choice of standard or fine threads.

In fact I've come across this sort of situation repairing British and Australian cars where some major components were sourced from elsewhere.

My (most recent) grumble started while building a 1:24 scale goods wagon

- the plan dimensions were in feet and inches (eg 18'7 21/64") My materials were in metric, inch fractions and inch thou'.

Take an actual example; the deck height of the wagon, 2'10 3/4" - simple conversion 34 3/4" - divide by 24 = 34 3/4 /24 or 1 43/96". Of course I can't get an inch ruler with 96ths of an inch 1.447917" ok 1.448" or

1.45"

My bogie center height is 22mm, my plasticard decking is 60 thou thick, the framing available in the shop is 7/16" deep, and my spacing washers are 0.75mm. So how many spacing washers will I need or do I need to buy another thickness of plasticard while I'm in the shop on my monthly visit?

Reply to
Greg Procter

It's my individual hobby - why are you getting annoyed at me for putting the right number of rivets on my wagon?

I don't care whether you have the right number of rivets or none at all

- that's your choice. I happen to like having the right number of rivets on my models and may well reject model xyz because it misses some out. I don't expect you to do the same because that's your decision. I also buy proprietry models and modify them to look like a particular prototype I want in my roster, knowing full well that they will never be precise scale models - I _know_ that the dome is a scale inch too high or the leading bogie is too long/too short and I accept it or that the tender rivets are in two even parallel lines rather than being parallel but offset - yeah, I counted the rivets - I'm a rivet counter and proud of it. So what?

I very much enjoy many facets of the hobby, including operating my trains and even gazing at them running around in circles while I blob out on occassions. But why do you insist I dumb down my individual version of the hobby?

Reply to
Greg Procter

You mention moving the comma to convert centimeters to millimeters.

Why is it the usage of commas and decimals are opposite on the two sides of the Atlantic?

The number 1,142.23 in the US is 1.142,23 in Europe. Why is that?

And although you mention the use of the comma, you use of decimals in your note is the US style. Hmmm...

Surely some knowledgeable person on this forum knows the answer.

Reply to
Ken Rice

Greg Procter spake thus:

Speaking for Ray, and for a lot of others in the congregation, what we're girding ourselves for is yet another tirade from you, based on the exact number, size, spacing and metallurgical composition of the rivets on one of what you call your "goods wagons". Or whatever.

Don't give us that phony "live and let live" crap, Greg: you're just so tightly wound, we *know* we're going to get another lecture from you soon enough. You just can't let it alone, can you?

Reply to
David Nebenzahl

Why? I never launch tirades - occassionally I bat them back to the tirader.

Did I start this "rivet counter" tirade? Answer: No. Ray was the one who started on rivet counters - I just happen to be in the middle of a quiet session of rivet counting and was left wondering why I was being attacked while minding my own business.

If you care to check back you'll find that the worst I'm guilty of starting is answering others questions - ohh, and even of being right

90% of the time.

Regards, Greg.P.

Reply to
Greg Procter

snipped-for-privacy@email.ads (Ken Rice) wrote in news:D5qbh.22395$w37.2137@trnddc08:

LOL - guess that's part of being functionally bilingual. I didn't even notice that I automatically changed to using the period (.) as a decimal point while writing a number in an American English text.

I do a _lot_ of (more or less) automatic conversion when I write in (US) English instead of Norwegian.

We do use the comma (,) as the decimal separator in Norway. And a space ( ) as the thousand separator instead of using a comma (,) in the US style. So in a Norwegian text I would write "1 245 127,32" and in US English I would write "1,245,127.32". Please feel free to change my comment above from "moving the comma" to "moving the decimal separator" :-)

Same thing with dates - in Norwegian I would write today's date as "30.11.2006", in US English as "11/30 2006". Sometimes when I know I am writing for an audience consisting of both Yanks and Norwegians, and I have dates where a number could be either the day number or the month number (ie day number less than 13) I might write a date like "11-SEP-

2001" instead of "11.09.2001" or "9/11 2001".

Of course, the smartest way of writing dates would probably be to do as the Swedes and write them "2006-11-30" - that way you have most significant part (year) to the left, and pretty easy sorting and grouping.

In a similar vein, I also think using the 24 hour clock is way simpler than the am/pm system. Over here the new day starts at 00:00 (midnight), noon is at 12:00 and the day ends at 23:59:59 (a second to midnight).

True - with a 24 hour clock you have to get used to what 1800 hrs mean (6 hours past midday, ie 6 pm), but there is a natural sort order to timestamps within the day. 00:30 is unambiguous 30 minutes past midnight and 12:30 is unambigously 30 minutes past noon.

In the am/pm system I tend to get a little confused about times like

12:30 pm and 12:30 am. One is 30 minutes past midnight, one is 30 minutes past noon. But which is which? One rule is "am" for "ante meridiem" - before midday, "pm" for "post meridiem" (past midday). Another rule is "higher number within same am/pm means later" - 11 pm is later than 10 pm.

So is 12:30 am in the morning ? or in the afternoon ? Does it come 1 hour 30 minutes after 11 am or 10 hours 30 minutes before 11 am ?

BTW - I _do_ know the answer - but it does not necessarily feel logical to me, so it takes a little extra mental effort for me to convert to am/pm for times between midnight and 1 am and between noon and 1 pm.

What else ? I often switch to "miles" instead of "kilometers". If I just need a rough distance I cheat and just multiply or divide by 3/2 or (ie I approximate an english mile as being about 1.5 kilometers instead of the correct 1.620 kilometers).

If I need approximate conversions between inches and centimeters, I approximate an inch as being about 2.5 centimeters instead of 2.54 cm). That way 10 cm is about 4 inches, and e.g 50 centimeters (5 x 10 centimeters) is about 20 inches (5 x 4inches)- close enough to estimate how much space you need for 20" curve radius or mentally convert track lengths on a model railroad layout plan.

If I need rough temperature conversions for everyday life, I know that a rough conversion factor is that a change of 10F corresponds roughly to a change of 5 celsius (not quite true - the factor is 1.8, not 2.0). And that fahrenheit has its freezing point at about 30F (not quite - 32F), while celsius is at 0C.

So 40F (30F+10) is about 5C (0C+5), 50F is about 10C, 60F is about 15C,

70F is about 20C, 80F is about 25C, 90F is about 30F and 100F is about 35C. 70F/20C is "pretty pleasant", 100F/35C is "too hot". Going the other way 0F (about -20C) means "a little on the cold side for barbecuing on the porch", anything between 0F and 32F is "pretty nice day for the wintertime" and anything below 0F is "maybe time to put on a sweater over the T-shirt before going outside". -40 (celsius or Fahrenheit) or colder means "it's a good day to stay inside and fix some stuff around the house".

Anyways - you asked why people use different separators and different conventions about how to write things. I have no idea. Accidents of history, I guess.

Doesn't matter, as long as most people make allowances - or just ask when things look weird :-)

Smile, Stein

Reply to
Stein R

Excellent response. I do wish we could all agree on one standard and stick to it. In my work I also have to be familiar with multiple time and date expressions. Personally, I would love to get rid of daylight savings time. I suggest the next time change it by 30 minutes, and stay that way.

Reply to
Ken Rice

Well Greg, you obviously DON'T know about the U.S. of A. (North America)

3.5mm = 1' is what I've been using for over 50 years, Including making 'masters' for 'lost wax casting', cutting SCALE lumber (2x4s are real spindly)

Chuck D.

Reply to
Charles Davis

Greg Procter wrote in news:456E2478.A93A0993 @ihug.co.nz:

If you have a worn threaded hole and do not the original bolt, you do have a problem. Heck - you might have a problem even if you have the original bolt, if your threaded hole is worn enough.You might have to end up rethreading the hole to make it fit a bolt you have.

That's life. No matter how much bellyaching you do in this newsgroup - I suspect that the world will just keep on using screws that follow different standards.

So you convert the plan dimensions to metric before dividing them by 24 to get scale dimensions (still in metric). What's the problem ?

2' 10 3/4": 2' = 24". You have 34 3/3" or 34.75". Multiply by 2.54 cm per inch. 88.265 cm

Want that in 1:24 scale - divide by 24. 3.6777 cm. Round off to a _reasonable_ degree (for 1:24 scale) and call it 3.68 cm or 36.8mm. Close enough for all practical purposes. People are not going to do anything nasty to you for getting your floor 0.002 cm (0.02 mm) too high.

On the full size car, that would correspond to an error of about 0.048 cm, or 0.12" too high.

Not significant if the original measure is given as 34.75". I doubt that the people who built the original cars would have lost their sleep if the deck height of a specific car turned out to be 0.12" higher than what they had originally planned.

If you only get to go to a store once a month, then stock up on plasticard. If you can afford it. If you can't afford it, find yourself a cheaper way of doing your hobby.

If you are asking how much materials you need to build up your waggon floor from 22 mm to 36.8 mm, the answer is "36.8 - 22 = 14.8 mm". What combination of washers, plasticard and framing you use to get those 14.8 mms is up to you.

The plasticard apparently is 60/1000 (inches ?) thick, ie 1.5 mm thick. The framing is 7/16 inch * 25.4 mm/inch = 11.1 mm thick and the washers are 0.75 mm thick.

14.8 - 11.1 (framing) - 1.5 (plasticard) = 2.2 mm.

So you either throw in one extra plasticard, which leaves you with 2.2

- 1.5 = 0.7mm for washers. If you then use one washer, your floor gets raised by another 0.05 mm (since the washer is 0.75 mm instead of

0.7mm). If you use this combination, your floor gets to be 0.02 + 0.05= 0.07 mm too high. 0.007 cm. Scaled up again that corresponds to your floor being too high by 0.168cm (0.066"). Not very significant when compared with the full size dimension (34.75").

Or you stay with one plasticard, and try to make up that 2.2 mm gap with 0.75 mm washers. That works out as "almost 3 washers". Using three washers will give you a floor that is raised by another 0.06 mm, for a total of 0.008 cm too high. Scaled up the floor gets to be too high by

0.192 cm or 0.076". Again, not very significant when compared with the full size dimension (34.75").

Closest match is then two plasticard, one washer, instead of one plasticard, three washers. In either case, the error is piddling - 0.18% in the first case, 0.21% in the other case.

As I wrote - metric makes for fairly easy calculations. It doesn't much matter what standard dimensions you can buy your supplies in as long as you convert to something you can do calculations in.

And by all means - do check my calculations before using my numbers :-)

Smile, Stein

Reply to
Stein R

The NMRA standard for HO is _not_ 3.5mm:1 foot, it is 1:87.1 which is different.

Quote from previous posting "> > (the US is a wrong answer) =8^) "

Regards, Greg.P.

Reply to
Greg Procter

Ken Rice wrote: [...]

Back in the Olden Days, there was no consistent usage in Yurp. Then SI came along (systeme international). For reasons best known to themselves, the committee members who concocted this system decided on the comma as the decimal point marker. Most European countries used the comma, so that probably explains it.

Reply to
Wolf K

a little bit cool,

25C is just right.

no, just a bit on the warm side. 40C is getting hot, makes things a bit uncomfortable 45C is very hot,

48C is bloody hot! Marble Bar and other places to the north regularly have 100 or more consecutive days with temperatures over 38C/100F

We occasionally get ice on car windscreens in winter, but it is usually all melted by 8am - and that is cold enough for me! Other parts of WA get colder and we sometimes get snow in the Porongorup Hills near Albany.

Weather tomorrow, Friday - sunny, min12C max 24C Alan, in Gosnells, Western Oz. VK6 YAB VKS 737 - W 6174

Reply to
alan200

Reply to
adm.nelson

Hi Nelson,

I know a lot of completely usless stuff, just like many other modellers. If I'd put the same energy into learning banking proceedures, or Public Service regulations or ... I could now be ... something totally boring!

Regards, Greg.P.

"adm.nels>

Reply to
Greg Procter

On Fri, 01 Dec 2006 08:59:36 +1300, I said, "Pick a card, any card" and Greg Procter instead replied:

Mission accomplished, Greg! Congrats!

Reply to
Ray Haddad

So you've added totally nothing to something totally boring - hmmmm! Quiet day at the office?

Reply to
Greg Procter

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