Buying blind

Hi Elliott, I think it was either yourself or your colleague who very kindly ran the Bachmann Gandy Dancer down the track to amuse my son. I didn't read your earlier post about being at Calne until after the event, otherwise I would havemade myself known. I certainly have sympathy for the security issues at shows, I guess the failed loco purchase is just one I'll put down to experience. Cheers, Bill.

"Bill Davies" wrote

Yes, it would have been one of us. I'm the one possessed by a bushy beard, Geoff isn't.

Elliott.

On 22/01/2006 22:33, Elliott Cowton said,

That's incredible! If they are that notorious, can they not just be banned from entering the show? (For those shows where the organisers know who they are, obviously!) Perhaps there could be a mug's gallery to be distributed around the various shows. I had assumed that there must be a certain level of theft from the trade stands (sadly), but to steal a loco from a layout is beyond words.

"Paul Boyd" wrote

There has to be proof of theft otherwise accusations could lead to the inevitable 'compensation setting in' phenomena.

John.

On 23/01/2006 17:47, John Turner said,

Mutter, mutter, bloody compensation culture.

Are show organisers actually obliged in law to let in all and sundry, even those who *allegedly* steal from layouts? This is a genuine question! Would there be a case to answer if someone who was refused admission actually did try to claim compensation? What about the "We reserve the right to refuse admission." type notices I have seen about? (but not necessarily at model railway shows)

John Turner said,

and Paul Boyd wrote

I was deliberately vague over what I said first time round, perhaps been a little too vague. In truth there was some history between the people involved and the clubs concerned, i.e. they all knew each other and the clubs were well aware of the way the people behaved outside of the exhibition environment; I won't go any further down that particular road because there are laws that cover that sort of thing if individuals or organisations become clearly identifiable.

Anyway, there was a spate of exhibitors reporting disappearances of stock from layouts over about two shows and it didn't take too long before the organisers twigged what was happening, but as John says, you have got to be able to prove it. If you choose to decline them admission and they ask you "why?" then you have a choice:

1. You can say "I reserve the right to refuse admission", and then they will probably take you to task in the press for your unreasonable attitude - and how many clubs want that? (Note recent report in Portsmouth Evening News of family where RSPCA refused to let them rescue a cat on account of boisterous child - The RSPCA got really bad press over that).
2. Or you can tell them the truth, and if you do that then you are making an accusation which you have got to be able to substantiate or you will loose in the ensuing slander case.

In short, you're damned if you do and you're damned if you don't! In the light of this, the tying up of two or three stewards for the duration of their visit is the soft option.

Elliott

Would the local press be very interested in reporting "alleged thief refused admission to obscure event"? I don't see many "[alleged-] troublemaker refused admission to nightclub by bouncers" reports in the local paper each week.

All that would happen is that the exhibition organisers would tell the paper there was a spate of thefts, which the paper probably couldn't say were linked to the people in question, but it would make the whole thing a non-story.

"Community exhibiton helps crack down on anti-social behaviour" anyone? ...

If you tell _them_ (and no-one else), is it slander?

Perhaps more to the point, are the people in question really going to risk going to court and as a result have it reported in the media that there are allegations of theft against them, which 99.9% of people wouldn't know about had they not gone to court?

"Arthur Figgis" wrote

The trouble is you can't even 'allege' they are thieves without proof or you'll attract the attention of a local solicitor.

I've banned a couple of people from my shop over the years believing them to be thieves but without giving specific reason for that ban, but as I own my property I can dictate who does or does not gain access. It's not quite so easy to do in a 'public place'.

John.

"Arthur Figgis" wrote

All I can offer to this is to say that I know the situation and I think there is a real problem. In the past I have had the honour of "commanding" people and I can tell you that there are those around who, at the slightest sign of a valid critism of their performance, will pull the race/disability/religon/whatever card and win the day; this would happen in the case of the specific problem that I have recounted. It is also what happened in the case of the RSPCA & the cat that I mentioned. The RSPCA were absolutely right in what they did but one of these "cards" came out of the pack and they had a lot of explaining to do in the press. (One alternative view of this might be that we happen to have a sensationalist local press who badly need to get a life but that is a totally OT debate that I think we ought to leave well alone.)

Valid point. It was late when I posted that and I really ought to have gone to bed instead of writing. That said, I suspect that the confrontation scene would be quite ugly and I suspect they would take great delight in making enough noise to be sure that enough people got involved for it being very difficult for the organiser to prove that he hadn't slandered them in some way.

Valid point again, but the final outcome (and the way it is reported) will depend on how they "Spin" it (don't forget, I have hinted that all those involved know each other and there is a bit of history (o.k., dirty laundry) here in the background). In this specific case the chances are that it would be presented from the angle that the poor weak and weedy visitor was being bullied by the mean show organisers. Hit that sympathy button at the right time and it will do untold damage to the club/show's local reputation.

Regards

Elliott

This is all a sad indictement of the times we live in (that makes me sound old, and I'm only 39 & 51/52ths!)

I guess it is really up to all of us to be vigilant, and if we see anything untoward going on at a show, to do something about it.

Don't worry Paul, life begins at 40

( 9 years for me to start my life then )

Kindest regards

Simon Judd

True. However, "Public place" does not necessarily equate to "public right of access". I'm not sure of the law on this point, and I know local authorities have had problems banning people from libraries as there is an implied invitation for the public to enter, but a hired hall (even a local authority hall) with an admission charge might be a different matter. Barnsley MRC's admission tickets always stated clearly that by buying it you became a "day member" of the club. Therefore regardles of the admissions policy of the premises, the club can reserve the right to grant you day membership (provided they aren't refusing solely on the grounds of race, sex etc). No membership, no admittance.

It might be an idea.

Stuart.

No there doesn't. You can ask a person to leave/not enter a shop or show withour giving any reason. You don't have to 'prove' anything. If they refuse you can use 'reasonable force' to physically eject them. If they persist in trying to enter you can get a court order to ban them.

(kim)

"kim" wrote

Read what I said and in context please. You cannot accuse someone of theft without proof or they could sue you for defamation.

You could ask certainly ask someone to leave a show without reason, but if they kicked up a fuss then you might end up losing all your customers if others felt you were acting unreasonably.

John.

I am. Unless the area is a "public highway" or "public right of way" there is no automatic right of entry.

Mine haven't. There are signs up stating that children are barred from entry during school hours and the uniformed guards make it plain that anyone asked to leave for any reason is not allowed back in. Also the shopping malls which were previously open to pedestrians now have signs stating they are private property and that anyone enetering for purposes other than to shop ie: "mallrats" will be asked to leave.

(kim)

I am. Unless the area is a "public highway" or "public right of way" there is no automatic right of entry.

Mine haven't. There are signs up stating that children are barred from entry during school hours and the uniformed guards make it plain that anyone asked to leave for any reason is not allowed back in. Also the shopping malls which were previously open to pedestrians now have signs stating they are private property and that anyone enetering for purposes other than to shop ie: "mallrats" will be asked to leave.

(kim)

As I said you don't need to give a reason for asking them to leave. You even can ban someone for being black, muslim, jehovah or whatever just as long as you don't give that as being the reason :o)

If they kick up a fuss then the majority of visitors will be convinced you had good reason for asking them to leave in the first place.

(kim)

Banning Jehovah could be a bad move in the long term...

Arthur (son of Deuteronomy of Gath)