feedback controller and DCC

This doesn't make sense.

You can go anywhere on the model railway, if it's wired.

-- Cheers Roger T.

Home of the Great Eastern Railway

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Reply to
Roger T.
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I use DCC for controlling the locos, and normal switches etc. for points (and signals when I get round to installing them), so I'd say DCC does not lock you into anything.

Reply to
Dave Potter

Where does DCC not allow one to go?

Reply to
Dave Potter

(snipped)

Phil: Please explain why dcc can only control 1 train, or more than one badly!! You are not limited to a single control knob! For my OO layout, I have a ZTC511 controller as the main unit, with a 622 on 3m lead, as well as a cordless DECT telephone linked back to the ZTC unit via the Lenz Expressnet, and a computer interface available for future information display or control. I could add more controllers! - I therefore have simultaneous, FULL control of 3 or more locos, and the ability to control points from all 3 (except that they are still on the Zero-1 bus at the moment)

For the LGB in the garden we have 4 cordless LGB controllers talking back to the MTS central controller - giving us simultaneous full control of 4 MTS/dcc locos (and 1 other on Radio Control)

Or are you referring to the human limitation of skilled control by 1 person? In which case I will partially agree with you - but it can be convenient to have different locos each allocated their own controller to avoid confusion - and withthe computer linked in, I can add 8 more locos with direct access control.

11 trains (8+3) at once should be intensive enough for a small mainline station????
Reply to
Phil

(snipped) earlier discussions

Phil: But the limitation of 'full size railway' blocks does NOT correspond to the artificially small blocks used to gain some basic loco control in an anaologue dc layout - eg a simple engine shed, or splitting a multipart train such as the Atlantic Coast express, or Southern EMUs and Permissive block working.

Reply to
Phil

Double track mainline with through trains and suburban trains originating and terminating. Goods yard and loco depot with bankers for the incline. Mainline and staging yard for 19-20 trains automatically operated.

There can be as many as 5 train operations taking place at at any instant, but I drive only one at a time when I'm operating alone. Further operators can take over tasks from the computer.

Well, that's much like my layout operation.

Same here. Well, the limit is two independently operated locos on one siding, one at each end of the ladder.

I've almost eliminated block switches from my layout - the remaining ones relate to non prototypical electrical blocks to allow double heading locos to couple together. Block power is controlled by turnouts and signals. Cabs are logically linked by computer.

I operate headlights by raising the PWM voltage of traction current from 12 volts peak to 15 volts peak. Whistles will be from beneath baseboard speakers (someday)

Sure, but the computer programs lock you in to the operating proceedures of the writer, not your prototype.

Actually, yes. I have had DCC available since 1995. It works ok on my exhibition shunting layout and as a separate cab on my analogue layout.

Sure, but you're locked into the stupid terminology of "consisting".

When did the (UK) GER ever use the term "consisting"?

No problem in analogue.

Regards, Greg.P.

Reply to
Gregory Procter

Try adding "automation" to a DCC layout - you might as well just sign all the blank cheques in your cheque book and hand it over to the local model shop! At the same time you add a level of technology that changes your hobby from modelling railways to trouble-shooting Lenz instruction manuals.

How does DCC "make this a far more realistic option? The limitations placed by electrical blocks are minimal. Admittedly I can't isolate a loco in the middle of a train (only at the ends) but then my prototype never placed locos in the middle of trains. My electrical blocks are almost all operated by turnouts and/or signals so there are very few electrical block switches. They are less hastle than keying in loco running numbers and certainly more intuitive.

Hmmm, yes I do. It is not only about driving slot cars on rails.

Regards, Greg.P.

Reply to
Gregory Procter

On my layout, you can only drive on the route set by the turnouts.

Reply to
Gregory Procter

- It limits you to driving your locos directly.

- Computer interfacing limits you to the capabilities allowed by the programmer.

- It places limits on your bank balance.

- it changes the hobby from model railways to DCC trouble shooter.

Reply to
Gregory Procter

My eyes only point in one direction at a time (or in two badly)

No you don't - you have the ability to control any _one_ of 3 or more locos fully at any instant.

Exactly.

Close, but why bother with all that expense when I already have that ability with analogue control?

Regards, Greg.P.

Reply to
Gregory Procter

I may be misinterpreting here, but my layout in no way allows "full size railway blocks", it being only about 12 feet long on the longest platform track.

I'll attempt to describe the wiring of that one block: It is divided into 5 electrical sections; two loco length sections, one long center section and a further two loco sections. The two inner loco sections have switches, each linked to the relevant outer loco sections. These are normally "on". The loco sections are powered via turnouts and home signals plus shunting signals depending on direction/polarity. The entire 5 section block is switchable, off and on, as a single block by route selection and the loco blocks can over-ride that switch-off by route control. Mainline route setting links the block to the mainline control. (auto computer or operator) Station route control links the block to the relevant shunting controller.

With those sections I can individually operate up to the maximum prototype of 2 head end locos and 3 rear end bankers.

Regards, Greg.P.

Reply to
Gregory Procter

And your computer control did not cost anything? Did not require thought and effort to design? Did not require a computer program? Came from the model shop? Keith Make friends in the hobby. Visit Garratt photos for the big steam lovers.

Reply to
Keith Norgrove

"Gregory Procter

I don't want automation. Automation, except for signals etc., isn't "operation". Especially when it comes to running the trains/locos.

But do you add and detach vehicles from your trains? Do you need engine yards full of isolating sections to hold your locos?

Mmmm. I want to run engine 539. Let's see. Mmmm. key in "59" and Bingo! Engine 539 runs. Yep, dead difficult that is.

From what you've written above, you don't. :-)

-- Cheers Roger T.

Home of the Great Eastern Railway

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Reply to
Roger T.

"Gregory Procter"

On mine, as in the prototype, you can drive a loco on any piece of track, regardless of how the points are set. You cannot, as on the prototype, trail through them as this will cause a short. Most of my trackage is live all the time. I do have my hidden staging tracks equipped with on/off switches, for safety, as are the roundhouse stalls. However, they are not required, they're just something I like to have to prevent accidents caused by operators making a keying error when selecting a loco from my stud of some 50 engines.

-- Cheers Roger T.

Home of the Great Eastern Railway

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Reply to
Roger T.

Very little. The computer is worth about the same as a lightweight boat anchor. The interface required some money - about the same as a basic DCC central unit. The relays were bought for just on one pound each in the UK.

The total is far less than the entire DCC collection of controls and decoders would have cost. My fallback position was to use a DCC interface and accessory decoders plus baseboard mounted decoders as controllers. That total cost would approximately have matched equipping all my locos with decoders.

Sure, but I was designing the layout anyway and it only a few steps more!

Sure - a Basic language self written program.

There aren't any model shops here :-(

Regards, Greg.P.

Reply to
Gregory Procter

But is that prototypical?

Reply to
Dave Fossett

What? You're kidding? You obviously don't know what DCC is about nor how it works.

"Computer", you keep mentioning "computer". What "computer"? I do;t have a computer connected to my railway. I have a programming track where I sit a loco when first assigning it a channel and programming its running attributes, that's it. But "computer"? Don't need one.

No, my bank account places limits on the number of locos I can add DCC to at any one time. Just like it limits everything else I spend my money one. Yes, initial install of DCC is not cheap. You cannot, if you prototypically operate your railway as I do, install DCC rather piecemeal. I had to install DCC in 19 locos. 11 steam road engines, 2 steam switchers, one doolebug (Railmotor) and 2 x 2 diesel road units consists.

Yes, at first. It can be a bit overwhelming.

-- Cheers Roger T.

Home of the Great Eastern Railway

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Reply to
Roger T.

I take your point, but I want to be able to operate my layout on those occassions when I don't have 4 or 5 operators available. I also don't want to have to operate the staging yard, which is not realistic but does represent "the rest of the world". I do want to be able to decide which part of the entire operation I want to control - something like the "Automatic Crispan" on the Buckinghamshire layout.

Magnetically operated uncouplers - that immediately forces me into defined positions for locos. (see electrical sections) Unless you've achieved DCC operated uncouplers on every item of rolling stock, you have the same limitation. (?)

Turntable with automatic track switching.

I have five 4-6-0 mixed traffic engines, five 2-6-2t and three 0-6-0t bankers - which one is "539"? (mostly standard loco classes on my prototype The loco numbers are 1.5mm high on the side of a loco 600mm away and my eyesight at 54 years old is diminishing slowly. Loco recognition was the first factor that turned me away from DCC!

You want my life history, CV, modelling philosophy, rolling stock roster, layout design and a treatise on railway operation inside half a dozen postings ???? :-)

Regards, Greg.P.

Reply to
Gregory Procter

"Gregory Procter"

Bingo. You don't "operate". You run a manual train while the computer controls the rest. That, in my book, is not "operation". Operation uses humans to drive all the trains and engine movement.

[Snip descrition of one operation on my GER]

But can you attach and detach vehicles to your trains without the use of isolation blocks? I can. Can ypu have two, or more, engines running in one electrical in each direction? I can. And that happens on the prototype everyday.

But with you, are the locos both on exactly the same piece of track, between switches/points/turnouts and able to run opposed to each other, as they can on the prototype?

Ah, ha. YOU use a computer to run trains. That's NOT operation (Well, except for perhaps use in automatic stageing yards) . That's automation. Not the same thing. On my layout, all trains are run by humans.

My locos could, if I wanted them to, have the sounds originating from the locos themselves. The headlights could be turned on, off or dimmed manually, etc., etc. just by using a DCC controlled on-board sound system. Something I've chosen not to do.

Sorry, my comment above should have read "There's _NO_ "computer program" for DCC.

programming".

"Consisting" is not stupid terminology. In North America, locos coupled together and operated from one cab are a "consist" and are refered to in the rule books as a "locomotive". As DCC was developed in the U.S. of A, as was the computer you're working on, your stuck with North American terminology, just as you are with your computer. :-)

Oh? Who mentioned the UK GER?

Yes it is. You cannot operate two locos, independently, on the same track, in opposing directions, with going to all sorts of electrical block trickery.

Cheers Roger T.

Home of the Great Eastern Railway

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Reply to
Roger T.

How do you manage that? Do you use the 0-5-0 shunter to move the locos past the difficult bits? I used to do that when I was about 5 years old.

Hmmm, if you do away with the overcenter spring on Peco turnouts and only use dead frog turnouts you should be able to trail through - but is it worth the effort? ;-)

Is that a good thing to have? ;-)

How do you keep track of loco addresses in hidden staging yards??? I have 5 parallel tracks, each with queuing for 3-7 trains. Keeping track of decoders would be a nightmare, especially as there are double headers and bankers. Operating by block is relatively simple and if I get it wrong the worst that happens is that the wrong train appears.

How do you know which specific loco is in the loco shed? My memory tends to fade a little when I come home from 3 weeks holiday or whatever. I do hate the crashing sounds at the wrong end of the layout when I attempt to drive the shunter up to the coaling stage! =8^O

Regards, Greg.P.

Reply to
Gregory Procter

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