Hornby Carriage wheels.

Last year I asked the question if anyone else had experienced problems with derailing of the current Hornby carriage bogie but the only
responses were to tidy up my track. At that time it was the pullman range and I eventually sold them on. I now have acquired a new SR MK1 brake / 3rd which is doing exactly the same thing. I have measured the max wheel bearing width (inside one flange to the outside edge of the opposite wheel. This come out at 17mm for a b-b of 14.3mm. Using exclusively peco track I find the actual gauge on curves to be 17.2mm. This of course explain why the wheel sets manage to fall between the rails. Now the pertinent Q? Do these wheels move easily on the axles and what b-b would be appropriate?
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Sailor wrote:

You've measured the check-gauge, which is 17.14mm minimum per NMRA standards, so the Hornby wheels are off by0.14mm. Peco's track gauge of 17.2mm is too wide: max. gauge is 17.1mm. The min. check gauge and max gauge allow for 0.04mm of tire to ride the rail, not much, but enough.
IMO, both the Hornby wheels and the Peco track are defective merchandise, and should be returned for replacement or refund. The alternative is to replace the Hornby wheels and the Peco track at your own expense. You could try regauging the Hornby wheels, I don't know how easy that would be. But they likely have a bad profile generally, not just off kilter check gauge.
In any case, your tale of woe illustrates why standards are needed.
--


Wolf

"Don't believe everything you think." (Maxine)
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Wolf wrote:

Hornby wheel profiles in the past seemed to vary from model to model and year to year. Their standard seemed to consist of "round", "coned tyres" and "generous flange" with back to back set at "index finger width".
I don't know if they have improved with Chinese production.

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Hi Peter, Down our club we get members frequently asking why their new hornby rolling stock keeps de-railing. Every time its because the hornby back to backs are too narrow. We've got a back to back gauge, so it only takes a couple of minutes to open them out and.. hey presto! they run fine. I therefore suggest you get yourself a back to back gauge (made of brass and quite cheap) instead of selling them our demanding a refund. Regards, Paul.
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paul snipped-for-privacy@hotmail.com wrote:

Sorry, I disagree about repairing defective merchandise yourself. Why put up with expensive trash? As long as you let Hornby (and others) get away with foisting substandard models on you, they will do it. They have no incentive to change. If only 5% of you start returning merchandise and demanding repair or refund, things will change pretty quickly. And a side effect will be that Hornby's market will increase outside the UK, where there are many who like myself would like to have a "visitor from overseas" on their layouts, even if slightly oversize, but have found that they can't run UK models on NMRA turnouts and track. A larger market means a greater variety of models, as well as better quality ones.
The reason the vast majority of North American and European outline models are so much better than British ones is simple: NMRA and MOROP. These are consumer organisations that promote standards designed for interoperability, so that any manufacturer's product will play nice with any other's.
Frankly, I can't understand an attitude that accepts shoddy merchandise on the grounds that it's easy to fix.
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Wolf

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It's simple really - it's a decidedly British attitude! I hear what your saying though, Across the board Industry Standards would really be manna from heaven. The thing is, how many Model shops actually return the aforementioned items (if it's a gauge issue), rather than offering a refund/exchange and then putting the stock back on the shelves. As regards foreign visitors, I'm much the same, though in my case it's NZ stock (Sn35, as NZ gauge is 3'6''). My biggest model, a Kb, hates with a passion almost all UK made track, although Peco 75 is passable with a few modifications.
--
James Christie

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James Christie wrote:

Yeah, I know, I have a fair bit of Brit in me, and it's caused a great accumulation of stuff that's too good to throw out....

I would send the items direct to the manufacturer - they guarantee the product, after all. (BTW, I have an Atlas N loco that developed a defect about a year after I bought it, which was when I first ran it. It was supposedly guaranteed for 90 days only. I had no sales bill anymore, either. Told them I'd had it waiting for a test run pending construction of a small N demo layout. They repaired it without a murmur.)

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Wolf

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"Wolf" wrote

The purchaser's contract is not with the manufacturer but with the retailer under English law. In actual fact the manufacturer can totally refuse to have anything at all to do with the end-user, although they would be rather foolish to do so.
Hornby will always claim that their locos & stock work with their track and if that proves to be the case then there is no case against them. Hornby make no promise that their products will work with those of any other manuacturer. The seems to be the case with their recent DCC offerings too.
There is NO industry standards at all in the UK despite attempts to create same in the 50s and 60s by the BRMSB. Tri-ang & later Tri-ang/Hornby were not at all interested at the time, and the attempt failed abysmally in the mass commercial market.
I've always claimed that railway modelling has survived in the UK despite Hornby and not because of them. This is just another example of why that is.
John.
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John Turner wrote:

Ah, I didn't know that. It's quite different here: the manufacturer guarantees the product, but the retailer may act as agent for the manufacturer (eg, the car dealer does a warranty repair, but the manufacturer pays.) If the retailer has housebrands, they are of course responsible for the warranty.
It seems to me that British law as it stands is not exactly an incentive for a manufacturer to produce a good product.

I agree with you. Mind you, my brother and I inherited a lovely Hornby O gauge clockwork railway from our uncles. We set it up in the garden, using the flower beds as "lakes", which Grampa tolerated, bless his heart. I don't know what happened to all the bits and pieces. There were two GWR 0-4-0s, and a 4-6-0, plus a number of chocolate and cream carriages, along with a slew of goods wagons. There was enough track that the smaller engines couldn't make the circuit, and had to be rewound about 3/4 of the way round. Nigel from across the street also had Hornby trains, and we often put our sets together. Grampa's garden was a wonderful place in other ways too, as he had a couple of pear trees, and three apple trees espaliered against the wall, which yielded very tasty fruit in season.
Sigh.

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Wolf

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There is, as the manufacturers contract is with the retailer, so the customer goes to the retailer and then the retailor goes to the manufacturer. (there may be other steps involved depending on distribution chain etc).
--

estarriol



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In practice, a lot of manufacturers (I'm talking in general and not just model railways) do warrant their products with e.g. a 12 month guarantee which is always stated to be in addition to "statutory right". The latter being the right under the sale of goods act against the retailer.
Manufacturers and retailers will also try to sell you an "extended warranty" through which you can pay for cover which you may very well have under the SOGA anyway, depending upon the nature of the fault.
MBQ
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snipped-for-privacy@hotmail.com wrote:

Consumers union did a study of "extended warranties", and came to the conclusion they were an unnecessary expense. In the unlikely event you needed the coverage, the repair would cost the same as the warranty. Which makes sense.
When I bought the Mac Powerbook, the retailer said that the extended warranty basically covered the cost of a new battery, which I would likely need around the time the warranty expired since rechargeable batteries have a limited life.
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Wolf

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Wolf wrote:

Similar studies shows that in the UK and you can even work it out for yourself although some shops throw in an extended warranty for free e.g. John Lewis 3 years for TVs.
Chris
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Hornby offer a three month guarantee, Bachmann six months - or at least that is my current understanding.
John.
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Which leaves the retailer with the problem if it can be shown there is a manufacturing fault as under consumer protection legislation a purchaser can make a claim against the retailer up to 6 years in England and Wales or 5 years in Scotland after buying the item.
Alan
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is that right ! Can you point me to the relevant legislation, must go back to my retailer mail pal and re-open our conversation !
Cheers, Simon
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A quick guide is on the gov site: http://www.dti.gov.uk/consumers/fact-sheets/page38311.html see Q.2 and Q.3 Other refs: http://money.guardian.co.uk/experts/legal/story/0,,1787459,00.html see paragraph 4. http://www.badtravel.co.uk/Sale%20of%20Goods%20Act.htm see 3rd key fact. http://www.businesslink.gov.uk/bdotg/action/detail?type=RESOURCES&itemId 73792524 see para 5. http://www.moneymatterstome.co.uk/8-Consumer-rights-responsibilities/Sub1/ButingGoods-SaleOfGoodsAct.htm about 5 paras down.
Alan
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Thanks for that, here we go again .....
Cheers, Simon
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"Alan P Dawes" wrote

That is strictly correct, but the item only has to be of saleable quality for a 'reasonable period' of time taking into account the price paid.
For instance it would be totally unreasonable to expect a 'biro' to work for 5 or 6 years.
A manufacturer is unlikely to leave a retailer in an impossible situation, and I believe that Hornby were giving a certain retailer credits for 'faulty' Zero 1 controllers for a number of years after they were discontinued.
I wasn't impressed when I heard that same retailer was wondering around swapmeets in the North of England buying they up cheaply so he could send them back for credit.
John.
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James Christie wrote:

John Gardner didn't make the K/Kb 4-8-4 to run around curves. The wheels are of course made to NMRA RP25 standard. It's quite possible to remove metal that gets in the way down to about 3' radius and with rather more effort 2.5' radius. 2' radius really needs the chassis assembled from first principles to suit the radius. 15-18" radius requires rebuilding to 0-4-0 configuration. ;-)
Greg.P.
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