As we reported earlier, following the press conference organised by Hornby to launch their 2005 programme, all present were asked to not reveal what models were planned before 1st January when Hornby would be revealing it on their website. As is often the case in these matters there is one who is incapable of keeping a secret and today (Wednesday 22nd December)
formatting link
has spilled the beans and revealed the two diesels which will be added to the Hornby stud next year and the new wagon.
The site, which promotes Rail Express Modeller, a supplement to Rail Express magazine, carries pictures of the real subjects on which the models will be broadly based.
< quote ends >
This is a disgraceful comment. Steve Jones' website is only repeating information reported in the current issue of 'Rail Express' which hit the news-stands today, and in any even the information is feely available on the Hornby website see -
formatting link
and on the 2005 trade order forms which became available today.
Steve has said some pretty disgraceful things about MREX Mag and its publisher recently. What goes around comes around. I like both sites and wish the sniping would stop.
It was on sale locally at least two days ago and if there had been any clue as to the Hornby story on the front cover I would have bought it then and there. Still, "the bin" liner livery would make a good Bachmann model.
John has pointed out that the one you saw was last months - very late :-) I managed to find a copy in Smiths in Uxbridge last week - my local pusher still hasn't had any of last months.
I agree with you to a point, but tell me which of the comments made about MREmag have NOT been true?
This MREmag editorial attack on
formatting link
is churlish to say the least, and stinks of nothing more than sour grapes because someone got the story into print before them. Pity it was Hornby themselves by publicising the new releases on their website.
Agreed - except that the sniping has been very one-sided until today.
I know that the folks over at DEMODELLERS regard MREmag as an object of ridicule. That and a similar disregard of this newsgroup were among the reasons I decided to withdraw from the group. Mr Jones is both ring-leader of this sniping and the main offender (or was last time I received digests from the group). MREmag was once accused of sucking-up to the manufacturers to get review samples. That particular assertion has been elaborated upon in the past to possibly libelous extents. I can't actually remember whether it was Steve Jones himself who made that particular accusation, but as moderator he should have nipped it in the bud rather than stoking the fire.
I agree with John that Pat has got this very wrong and should have got his facts straight before publishing something so misleading. Hopefully he will be big enough to admit his mistake.
I find the critisism of MREmag quite strange. Todays outburst is very much out of character on the site. Editorial content is kept to a minimum and rarely offers opinion. That is left to the contributors in the "Have your say" section. It's within anyone's rights to disagree with such contributions, which everyone will at some point because Pat publishes arguments from every viewpoint. By contrast, Steve Jones states in the FAQ for the DEMODELLERS that anyone who expresses certain opinions which are not in line with his own (or "urban myths" as he eroneously likes to call them) will be removed from the group.
I'm disapointed that MREmag has allowed itself to be dragged down to the playground level of its critics. With the exception of today, I find MREmag an entertaining and inoffensive site. The Electricnose site is also a very useful resource and clearly demonstrates that Steve Jones is a knowlegable and able modeller. It's the sarcasm and constant sniping at those who don't hold the same views as him which stops it being essencial reading for the D&E modeller.
I too wish all this would stop. I like MREmag and I liked DEMODELLERS (when it gets on with the job of discussing modelling) and I see no reason why both shouldn't coexist. This is after all supposed to be the season of good will!
LOL - I suspect most of them to some extent or other, but the sort of comments which have been made appear to be responding to those of contributors to MREmag rather than those of the editor thereof.
I disagree. Steve is one of the few people in this hobby who talk sense. Anything he's said abour MREmag recently has only been satirical in my view - and well deserved considering the rose-tinted letters often published on the website! I hope that Pat Hammond realises that his public outburst is particularly childish and is the sort of stuff which he asks contributors not to send in to his website (see "Having Your Say" about submitting letters which are "positive, polite and definitely not libellous"). As has been said already here, Steve posted information which was already available in Rail Express and on the Hornby website, so perhaps Pat Hammond should try and keep up with the times instead of making an embarrassment of himself.
Well, actually, they didn't as such. You cannot navigate to the Hornby announcement pages from the home page: you have to know that the pages exist and enter the URLs manually (or link from somewhere else that has the links added).
Hornby say on another of their pages: "As with previous years, the official announcement is a closely guarded secret until January 1, and this year is no exception." So, what they appear to have done is set up the pages in advance, ready to make the one change on the navigation bar at 1 second into 2005.
We have a term for this sort of "security by ignorance" in the computing trade. It is "lack of security", because it is quite likely that someone may guess the URLs of the pages, especially if they are similarly named to last years'.
I'm not sure which critisisms you refer to. Not having been a member of DEMODELLER for a while, I don't know what has been said recently. However, in the past, there has been a suggestion that Pat is deliberately easy on Hornby, Bachmann so as to remain in their "good books" and get free samples etc... If I was Pat, I would be offended by that. The reviews carry little if any opinion on the accuracy of their subjects. I include a snip from the
37/0 review below by way of example. Also, the fact that the reviews are very short and clearly sponsored by a retailer, makes it clear to anyone with half a brain that they are hardly definitive.
Sadly, Pat has dug himself a hole here. He obviously wrote what he did thinking that Steve HAD breached some sort of trust. If that had been the case, then the critisim would have been fair. Pat's error was in not checking his facts before going into "print".
Adrian
From MREmag's 37/0 review: "Not having studied the real locomotives in the same detail that some of our readers have, we cannot make detailed comparisons with the prototypes and, indeed, are happy to leave critiques to those better equipped to give them. "
To be honest, MREmag has only made itself the subject of ridicule by the content of a number of letters submitted and published there and the manner in which others have been edited. I myself never joined in the MREmag debate on DEMod as the general opinion of MREmag's content has been voiced often enough, but anyone with an ounce of common sense would find it hard to disagree with Steve's opinion and that of others and I've never seen anything remotely libellous until I read MREmag today!
So why make out that the Electric Nose website is any worse than MREmag?
Still, the damage may well have been done.
This just shows that everyone makes mistakes!
It's Steve's honesty and modelling skills which I admire. From where I'm sitting, the only sarcasm is aimed at those who deserve it by coming out with misguided opinion and not willing to accept the disappointing errors on so many models produced today.
Well remember who started all this off. Without Pat's unneccesary comments, none of this discussion need to have taken place!!!
Hiding behind satire and sarcasm doesn't make his comments any more acceptable. I can't understand why people are so critical of Pat for publishing all shades of opinion on our hobby.
So if I post to DEMODELLERS saying that the Heljan Hymek is the worst D&E model on the market, it would be OK to lampoon Steve Jones as moderator as if it was his opinion too? Of course not. When one of those "rose-tinted" letters appears, they are invariably balanced in the same or next issue by something to the contrary. The MREmag letters page is essencially a moderated discussion group like DEMODELLERS. But unlike DEMODELLERS, it is not restricted to a particular point of view.
So do I - except that this outburst is very much the exception for Pat Hammond. For Steve Jones it is par for the course.
I don't think people are being critical of Pat himself. It's more to do with the oft-unchallenged opinion of some of the letters which appear on MREmag.
The problem with MREmag in my opinion, as I'm trying to point out, is the laughable content of numerous letters published on a daily basis, presumably submitted by these misguided people who are all too willing too accept silly little errors on otherwise decent models and who try to criticise those more experienced and knowledgable modellers who aren't afraid to point out what
*is* actually wrong with a model. It also seems to be true to say that these experienced and knowledgable modellers aren't afraid to speak their mind because they aren't at risk of losing out on the opportunity to review a model which they haven't had to pay for!
I think that's wholly unfair on Steve. Personally I am unbiased and don't know Steve personally, but I have never known him to make such a vociferous and mistaken attack on someone such as that which Pat has made on him.
That's nonsensical. MREmag publishes both sides of the debate. Everyone is bound to disagree with some of those letters. If anyone wants to poke fun at a particular contributor, I suppose that's OK (if it makes them feel superior), but it's neither logical nor fair to transfer that critisism to the website or the editor.
Just because it's the only opinion voiced on DEMod doesn't mean that's the only opinion held. I held my tongue on there for months and then got taken apart by 2 or three people when I spoke up. When I refused to be bullied and continued to defend MREmag and this newsgroup (both ridiculed by the "moderator" and others), my messages were initially delayed and then began to disapear into the ether.
We will have to agree to disagree on that. Don't get me wrong, Steve is a clever bloke. His views are right for himself and for those who have the same expectations and commitment to the hobby that he has. What he fails to accept is that not everyone is as uncompromising as he is. Not everyone has the time or ability to make their layout come close to matching even the worst Bachmann model in terms of accuracy. What he can't accept is that there are a huge number of people out there who are happy to enjoy the hobby at a lower level, for whom the errors on recent models just don't matter that much.
If Steve and others could accept that, then we would all be better off. Poking fun at MREmag and its contributors is something akin to bullying the weedy kid at school because he's crap at football.
Well let me assure you that in the past, DEMod has carried suggestions that Pat get's review samples in return for soft reviews. That is mallicious hearsay whereas Pat's gaff today is just misinformed (although perhaps it is Rail Express which have perpetrated the breach of trust rather than Steve Jones, if John Sullivan is correct - see elsewhere in this thread).
I didn't say it was worse, just that it was spoiled by "the sarcasm and constant sniping at those who don't hold the same views as him" - (some examples below )
Indeed. That's the sad part.
It's whether those mistakes are repeated that matters in the long run.
Well I personally think that it's very childish to be sarcastic about someone simply becuase you don't agree with them. There have been a FEW well-documented cases of denial about "disapointing errors", but what the DEMod mafia seem unable or unwilling to accept is that there is a huge group of people out there for whom most of these errors aren't that significant. They might not like it because it pulls the market in the wrong way for their own aspirations, but it happens to be true.
I know. And I've emailed him directly to express my disapointment.
PolyTech Forum website is not affiliated with any of the manufacturers or service providers discussed here.
All logos and trade names are the property of their respective owners.