Believe what you will. I've got far more important things to be getting on with than sitting here getting embroiled in a slanging match! I know that both Pat and Steve subscribe to this newsgroup so perhaps we should leave it to them to continue this debate if they so wish.
Unless you are going to tell me that you or others have written responses which have not appeared, then I don't see why MREmag should get the flak. What should Pat do? Make up responses?
Most of the letters there are far more middle-of-the-road, and when a particularly rose-tinted example appears, it does usually illicit a response in the other direction.
They are NOT misguided. It's just their viewpoint. If they are happy who are you to tell them they shouldn't be? On matters of preference like this, there can be no right and wrong. I happen to think Audi are good cars. Should I go around telling people that drive Skodas that they are wrong to do so? No. It's just a question of what we want.
There is a continuous range of abilities and levels of knowledge in this hobby from trainset on the carpet through to scratch-builders and super-detailers. It follows that there will be a corresponding range of opinions on the acceptability of every model. No model is perfect. No two people are alike. No one person's opinion on what is acceptable is more valid than any other, because it only applies to them.
That's easy to say when the offer of review models was never there in the first place.
Rail Express did a veritable demolition job on the class 40. If your theory is correct, they won't be reviewing anything before release date from now on.
I have met neither of these people, but I know that just about everything I read from SJ is riddled with sarcasm and ridicule of anyone who doesn't see things the same way as him. Everyone who disagrees with him ia a "neverhaditsogooder" - apparently an insult of some sort. To my knowledge, this was in ONE letter by ONE person ONCE and anyway, it is true to say that mechanisms and general levels of detail are - as one would expect - better than say 10 years ago. That's not to say that we should be complacent - we should of course strive for better, but manufacturers try to make a product that will sell well, with as little outlay on research and tooling as possible. They will only rethink their business plan when the models don't sell. Despite what Steve might say, correct tooling costs more in terms of time and effort on the research side of things. More people checking things more closely more times would highlight these errors, but at a cost.
Adrian
21/12/04 "contrary to the howling and frothing of the WeveNeverHadItSoGood brigade" "Yet the feeble attempts to silence criticism of this model "
17/12/04 "regardless of whatever the braying WeveNeverHadItSoGooders might claim"
16/12/04 "Unbiased Al-Freebie Information Minister, Muhammed Saeed al-Shergar...." pages of oh-so-clever sarcasm here.
The information and observations which sandwich this needless drivel are
*very* informed and well written.
Steve. People have their own opinions. They are not necessarily the same as yours. Please...just accept that fact and get on with what you are good at.
Pat. Please ignore the jibes about you and your contributors and leave any breach of trust which may or may not have been made to Hornby.
Not from me you don't - although for a while we had both on MREmag. None of this name calling is helpful. Both sides just need to realise that what is right for one person is not for the other (and vice versa). Now viewpoint is any more or less valid than another.
I must disagree on the latter point Adrian. Calling something black when it's white is not a valid viewpoint. If a model is wrong, then it's wrong and nothing can change that. It is possible, however, to have a viewpoint which considers the inaccuracies, to be acceptable, and with that I've no argument. To say they don't exist is an altogether differerent matter.
To be honest though I thought the whole thing had mellowed, but it has been brought back to the fore by this rather silly comment from MREmag.
As someone who reads both web sites every day your criticism appears to be entirely one sided to me. According to you it is perfectly okay for Steve to make repeated and wildly unfounded accusations - if not by name - that Pat is some sort of 'crook' but not okay for Pat to retalliate in kind. Frankly I'm surprised Pat has waited this long before reacting. Just because he has not responded in the past does not mean he has not been been deeply offended by the remarks. If you are not aware of some of the things Steve has said recently then I suggest you do not read his website as often as I do.
Agreed. Arguing black is white is unforgivable. What I'm talking about is the opinion as to whether a model is good enough for our own purposes. One person's show-stopping gaff is another's insignificant detail. My beef has never been with the fact that people criticise these models, just the manner that it is sometimes done. As long as such critique is reasoned and fair, it can only be a good thing. When it decends into "spin" and hyperbolae it is distructive. Talk of "mishapen lump of plastic" and similarly childish phrases can never be considered as constructive. Anyway, one man's "mis-shapen" lump is another's "good likeness". What I'm saying is that very few people actually deny that these errors are there - everything has an error to some degree. What we all have to understand is that our own assessment of how serious these errors are, IS opinion and not universal fact (or urban myth).
A friend of mine who is still on DEMod says that the jibes at MREmag still happen on an almost daily basis. Why that would be the case, I don't know, because I can't find a single case of anyone claiming black was white, just opinion on the more debatable aspects of the whole thing.
As I have said to Pat directly, yesterday's comments are hardly likely to improve the situation!
Apologies if I ranted a little yesterday...I think I had my "grumpy head" on! Christmas is a very stressful time...(excuses, excuses).
I suspect I'll be knocking on your door (metaphoricaly speaking) very soon for that DCC setup - I dropped a few hints with the Mrs, but I think I talked her out of it again (why did I do that? Doh!)....
I'd agree with that. I've caught eight shoplifters in three days and have deliberately not posted much to a single group I'm a member of in case it comes out badly :)
Then those letters are the opinion of the authors, not the site. There usually arnt many letters which dont have a reply arguing the other point of view a couple of days later! This, at least, is different to DEMod.
Recently, there was a long running, discussion (argument?) on MREmag between so-called "rivet counters" and others who were not as demanding. Pat was not afraid to publish letters whose opinion he did not necessarily share.
If I went onto DEMod and said something that Steve Jones didnt agree with, would he let it stand?
I suspect the "never had it so good" letters are even more numerous and strident than the ones Pat publishes. There are a lot of modellers - certainly where I live - who don't subscribe to newsgroups, don't read model railway magazines, have never heard of Heljan or Bachmann and whose chief source of information is Hornby's annual catalogue. To suggest to these people that the new model they just paid good money for is anything less than perfect is bit like telling them the woman they married is not as good looking as she might have been.
Kim, That does of course depend on the guy you're talking to.
For example, some (perhaps in the Tri-ang society) prefer badly proportioned old boilers, decorated to a poor standard.
Some guys may even prefer the more burly Margate lass than one of the more petite examples arriving for the far-east or Denmark. (though I notice the supply from Italy has dried up - some may argue if it was ever there).
You have to realise that models come in all shapes and sizes.
If you take the time to look more closely you may just find that that Tri-ang Jinty has a heart of gold......(though I suspect that it's largely iron).
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