Preservation - When did it all start?

Steve,

The only problem I could see is that the locomotive would foul the loading gauge when put on a well wagon in real life, so you wouldn't normally see such a setup. I haven't got dimensions of a Stirling single to hand but you might find that you would have to have removed the chimney and maybe some other boiler fittings as well as the cab roof to stay within loading gauge.

I think that 'dead' standard gauge locos were normally pulled on the rails with their motion disconnected - which might make an attractive train in itself with brake vans, etc.

It is fairly common to see standard gauge locos and stock on road trailers - where the clearances can be much higher.

Jim.

Sadly very true in this day and age but probably not the case when the first York (not National) Railway Museum opened, (around 1931 I believe).

As you wrote earlier, it would almost certainly have been delivered by rail on it's own wheels, and probably with the rods removed.

Dave W.

Wasn't the national collection held at a museum in Clapham at one time??

Ian J.

There was an earlier and smaller railway museum in York that was superseded by the present one. I believe it was opened in the 1930's (or even the 1920's) so your plan would be perfectly in order from the historical point of view.

Andy

Stirling 1. was laid aside in the Doncaster paint shop from 1907, earmarked for eventual preservation in a static condition (with, as Ahrons commented, her insides removed). Presumably the original intention was a static exhibit like the Furness Bury in a glass case at Barrow or the Stockton and Darlington engines on the plinth at Bank Top, Darlington (or, indeed, the Bury in the station concourse at Cork). Not sure when the move to York took place, but in the middle 1930s old No.1 was restored to running condition

- your model could represent her transfer prior to rebuilding to running condition.

Old No.1 never went onto the scrap pile - she was laid aside with preservation as an intention (the same is true for almost all the early survivors - and for a few which didn't make it). However, the shift from being hidden in the back of the paint shop to visible- preservation might work well for your model.

[1] North Star & Lord of the Isles - both put to one side in the Swindon paint shop in the 1870s and 1890s, both scrapped in 1907, Drummond's "Bug", kept in the Eastleigh paint shop but scrapped in the 1940s, the Eastern Counties Railway single of the 1850s which was plinth'd outside the GER works but which ultimately rusted away in the 1890s or so, the Bury at Wolverton ditto...

The York Museum (not the NRM, then) was set up by the L&NER to hold some of the old stock which had been exhibited at the 100th anniversary of the opening of the Stockton and Darlington - what this really meant was opening the old York paint shop (where the NER had stowed old engines they were keeping as historical relics) to the public and adding a few more. The Stirling single was probably moved to York around this time.

The move back to Darlington to be restored to running order is probably your best best - for this the engine would have been moved on its wheels. I very much doubt whether there would have been banners or anything like it, though - more likely the whole engine would have been tarp'd over to disguise its identity (the re-appearance of No.1 in running order apparently coming as something of a surprise).

Yes - the York museum became the national railway museum in 1975, prior to that it had belonged to BR.

It was at a former bus garage near Clapham Common until the late 1960s, though there was also a railway museum at York. This latter dated from the

1930s, if not earlier, but was not at the present site IIRC. Movement of 'dead' steam locos was certainly still practised until the 150th anniversary of the Liverpool and Manchester at least. Locomotives were kept in 'light steam' whenever possible to assist lubrication, or if not, then rods were removed. Movements would be carried out under Class 8X** or 9X** headcodes, with top speed of 35mph and stops every couple of hours for checks on running gear. This was still feasible when there were frequent stretches of multiple track and goods loops, but would be a logistical nightmare today- hence the popularity of road movements. There was at least one exhibit at Rainhill on a well wagon, I recall- an ex-Welshpool and Llanfair narrow gauge tank. Brian

Thanks all for the wonderful mental images for my dear Stirling and her journey - now I can set about to choose which "final resting place" she is destined for. This will hinge on the style of buildings of the early York and Clapham museums, so if anyone has pics they can email me, I would be most grateful..... I know I am doing something way out of the ordinary but attempting to create buildings after the spirit of the original museum is something I will get much pleasure from.

Jim, the Stirling is an extremely small loco and possibly wouldn't foul a loading gauge, but I am uncertain. Chimney may, but cabin probably not - also, I appreciate that the step of mounting loco and tender on well wagons is at odds with common practice though I am ok with that as I think the result will be acceptable. Like all modellers, I will concoct some story as to why it might've been done :) Also, the 12 wheel army well wagon I have her on looks like it is touching the rails, it is that low!

FYI, I received the wagons and Jinty at around 12:30 pm today. By 7:30 this evening I have cut the coal out of the tender on my Stirling and fashioned an innards to replace it. Removed the coal door (or whatever it's called) and repainted the tender wheels black. Tender is now drying out back in the cool night air. On the loco I repositioned the rear steps to the cabin 2 mm further in, in order for them to sit better on the wagon and filed each step thinner as these were way over-scale.

While awaiting glue and primer to dry I did some more sanding on my Lord of the Isles rebuild - and discovered why handrail knobs come in different lengths!!!!!!!! ooops.

All in all a fun evening

Thanks again everyone for your help - I look forward to finding out more!

Steve

I'm pretty sure No.1 never went to Clapham, except perhaps for very short visits (and even then I'd be surprised). The old York paint shop (now part of the museum again) was her haunt.

Chimney would certainly need to be removed. Cab you //might// get away with. The tender was a later (1925?) addition to the ensemble, the original tender having been used elsewhere when the engine was set aside (it's actually not a Stirling tender at all, rather one from a Sturrock goods - an attempt to re-unite No.1 with a Stirling tender in the 1970s fell through for some reason).

Thanks Andrew

Any idea what the original tender looked like and if so, are there any pics or sketches/diagrams available - I had a look but can't see any so far. I have now finished painting the tender internals and while it was drying I measured the height of the loaded Stirling against a Lord of the Isles. The chimney is 2 1/2 feet above the Lord's so I imagine it would be touch and go as a Lord's chimney (if to scale) is as high as a Mallard boiler.

This is fun!

Thanks

Steve

Much bigger and higher-sided. The large but lovely Aster model has the right tender:

.. that is, the right tender for the engine running from its big rebuild (new frames, longer wheelbase behind the driving wheel, bigger firebox) in the 1880s until 1907! During its tenure in the paint shop at Donny it didn't have a tender (that would have taken up too much room) and I believe the Sturrock frames/Stirling goods engine body tender that it got in 1925 was the nearest wooden-brake-blocked tender to hand..

I've seen pictures of Stirling 1 alongside an Ivatt (large) Atlantic (taken in 1907) ad alongside a Gresley A1 (think it was 'Flying Scotsman') taken in 1925 - there's little or no difference in overall height. The A4s like Mallard were designed to fit the NBR loading gauge for north of Edinburgh, so they might actually have been a few inches lower.

"mindesign"

You could certainly do Stirling No 1 in York Museum. I take it this is the old Kitmaster plastic kit? You could likewise have alongside it in that era, City of Truro! (another ex-Kitmaster, now Dapol model). The GWR were indifferent to preserving it when withdrawn in about 1931 but the LNER, mindful of its 1904 speed exploits, offered to take it away and look after it. Though I think it was kept in "as withdrawn" condition with the then-current GWR livery and crest, and numbered as 3717 - it didn't revert to its original colour scheme, crest and number until sometime later, between withdrawal and its return to mainline (mostly railtour) working in

1957. The Dapol kit is certainly correct for its preserved status - tapered boiler with topfeeds, rivet-patched frames, etc - you have to do a fair bit of bashing to make 3340 in "as built" condition, So you could do a shed diorama of the two locos, maybe even Rocket too, with signboards (a bit perfunctory in those days: from a visit in the early 70s I don't recall the York museum's labelling or displays being any too fancy before it became the NRM and discovered graphic whizzery) and some period-dressed visitors peering round the exhibits.

The biggest problem I have with your scheme is the Jinty, whether in WD drab or a proper livery. LMS little tanks chugging around York? Is that likely? An LNER-livered J72, more plausible.

I also have somewhere an early NRM publication From Dandy Cart To Diesel, showing the wheeled exhibits being moved from Clapham to York in the

60s (?) - they just hooked them all up into a great convoy, stuck a diesel on the front and worked it up as a very careful part-fitted freight! Do the later period and you can stick the prototype Deltic (also a Dapol plakky kit) in the line up too!

Tony Clarke

Quite a bit of stuff was scattered around. The Furness copper knob was on Barrow station until WWII.

Ken.

"David Westerman" wrote

I was told years ago that a lot of the stuff which was incarcerated in the old Queen Street Museum at York was actually in working order when first exhibited and some of the exhibits made their way there under their own steam.

I first visited the old museum in the late 1950s/very early 60s and photographed two D49 nameplates which were on the wall. From memory they were 'Yorkshire' and 'The York & Ainsty', but it is a long time ago and my brain gets fuddled these days. I seem to recall that 'City of Truro' was there for a while too, until released for a brief sojourn back on the main line.

John.

The message from Ken Parkes contains these words:

Hardwicke and Cornwall (L&NWR) were in the Paint Shop at Crewe Works for many years.

Thanks Tony

The lovely City of Truro is another Loco I wish to model in both static and powered form - All the Stirlings I have are the Kitmaster versions (don't know of any other OO scale offerings) and very small so powering them will be an interesting challenge. I love Singles and have 5 lord of the Isles and three Caledonian Singles. In addition to these I bought a metal LNWR Cornwall and Webb Single (8ft 6in wheels) with an accompanying coach, which needs assembly (gulp!) and motor and gearbox...... all these will be fascinating projects.

I have been thinking about the design of a convincing system of chains and girders etc. for the Stirling. I can make all the elements, though would've preferred to buy a couple of scale hooks (crane hooks) - these would be added with chain attached etc. as tackle to accompany the loco on its wagon and add to the overall effect. - to date I have been unable to find scale hooks of any type.

Cheers

Steve

I suspect we will never agree on when preservation actually started, but (according to H C Casserley in "Preserved Locomotives", published 1968) the oldest preserved locomotives in Great Britain are WYLAM DILLY (0-4-0 built

1813), PUFFING BILLY (0-4-0 built 1814) and the Hetton Colliery 0-4-0 of 1822. The first two were rebuilt as eight wheelers >

Nitpick: The Hetton engine is not repeat not of 1822. It was built new in 1852 or 1853 and there are documents by those involved in its building and working to confirm this. The old Hetton engines were scrapped outright as the two new engines entered service (one of the new ones exploded a few years earlier, the other survived to be - currently - in a shed at Beamish). There's a deal of published information on the Hetton engine now (notably in the proceedings of the 2nd Early Railways conference) so the "1822" red herrign really should be consigned to the bin.

Now, the engine preserved the the north Tyneside centre - "Billy" - no-one really knows /what/ that is. It might be a new-build from the 1860s or it might be a radical rebuild of a Geo. Stephenson engine from Killingworth, and thus pre-1824...

Hi again folks

The posts on my thread have been fascinating and a wealth of information and I thank you all. Would it be possible for those who have them, to email me pics (or can point me to websites that have pics) of any period buildings (1800's - 1930's) that are/were used for Loco storage, display and preservation work? I would like to start collecting together a range of architecture so the images can rattle around in my noodle in the hope of having a theme emerge for the destination of my model Singles and Rockets. I recognize that it isn't strictly necessary or even possible to copy a building precisely, but having a base from which to work will enable me to design something that is at least after the spirit of the original and contains enough elements to be convincing.

Also, various posters have mentioned early locomotives I have never heard of - if sketches/pics/websites exist that show these it would be much appreciated if I could get some.

Many thanks

Steve