Leasing industrial space for hobby use

Glenn Ashmore wrote:
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Understood, Mom got her real estate license in the latter 60's and her brokers license in the earlier '70s. I haven't worked the profession but I sure as hell witnessed it.
While the 'shop' I referenced was in a decent location it was something you would find on a back alley. Uneven floors, damp, rickety doors, something from Stump Town.

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I often rented spaces that size for band practice spaces for less than $200. <G>
It's ART, not a business! <G>
Barry

Glenn Ashmore wrote:
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Hey! don't throw those chemicals away, us hobbyists could use them :-)

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You bet!
Right now there seems to be a glut of vacant industrial space on the market so you can pretty much find something that is tailored to your needs.
I rent a 2,000 Sq. Ft. space and I love it.
Large overhead door plus a loading dock. 200 amp 3-phase service. And now I can park in my garage again.
As for insurance: you might need liability insurance. If so, call your insurance broker and get a quote.
George.

Oh yeah, another huge benefit for nuts like us, in a commercial property no one is going to complain if you are working at 3am and running a table saw. Well except for the guys who live in a store room someplace in one of your neighbors companies, but they aren't supposed to be there anyway :)
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one-car
with

Speaking as a tenant and the owner of a small business, finding the right landlord and the right space is the hardest thing about setting up a business. In the past five years I've had two serious threats to put me out on the street, and right now I'm in a battle because the landlord's heating contractor did a bunch of unauthorized work and they're trying to stick me with the bill, plus a $35 "management fee" if you can believe it. You'll hear lots of horror stories. The bottom line is: if you hear a little voice telling you not to deal with someone - walk! And whatever you do, don't take a space on "month-to-month" if you plan on doing any major work there. Good to see Steve Knight from the "oldtools network" on the list!
regards,
Matt Turner Turner Racing Shells Ltd. www.turnershells.com

On Mon, 22 Dec 2003 18:39:35 -0700, AL wrote
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I rented a "stall" in a segmented warehouse a number of years ago It had a steel walkthrough door and a 12 foot roll up, about 800 ft^2. I had to get my own 220 power run in since it only had a single shared 110v 15A circuit which cost about $600. Rent on the space was about $200/month (no other utilities). They didn't really care what I did, just as long as rent was paid. Others had small machine shops, chile roasting/packaging, potato chip distributor, etc.
-Bruce

Just for calibration purposes:
For another project I checked with a local real estate guy on warehouse space. valid for the Minnneapolis area:
Standard office warehouse space in the suburbs, off in some industrial park, you've seen them, tiny reception area, larger office, smaller office, store room, 30' wide, 90' deep, Loading dock in back, 4" floors, 220 power but not 3 phase. $4 a square foot per YEAR for the warehouse space, $10 a square foot per year for the office, figure $6 per foot blended. 2700 feet would be around $16000/year or $1350 per month. I've seen small distributors, woodworking shops, machine shops, fabricators, assemblers, etc in these spaces.
Another outfit subdivides this into smaller spaces. Price would still be in the $6 range. 800 feet would be $400 a month, not horrible for a newer building in a place where you can park your car outside and still have wheels on it when you get done inside.
AL wrote:
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It will vary a lot depending on whether you are in a small town or a large one. Most business space leases start out at about 3 years because most of the leasing companies expect to do some modifications for the tenant and want to know the tenant will be around to recoup the costs. however, there are some cases where you can get a single year lease if you look around. Single year tends to be expensive though (all commercial space tends to be overpriced in my opinion...a lot of cash for an essentially empty room). I haven't seen any "month to month" on commercial space but it may exist if you look long enough.
Most commercial space is rented on a "triple net" basis (often called NNN). This means that the tenants of the units share ALL costs for maintenance, water, outside lighting, management fees, etc. This can really add up. For example, if the landlord decides the parking lot needs re-paving or the building painting, you are stuck for you proportion of the costs (even if you don't think it needed to be done).
Currently, my 1536 square foot place costs about 1100 a month (seattle area) and the NNN is another couple of hundred a month. This may give you an idea of the costs of commercial space in a fairly large metropolitan area.
Oh yea...one of the most common lawsuits is broken business leases. Don't expect to back out of a lease early in the commercial end without getting nailed.
I would avoid true commercial space and see if there is someone willing to lease "barn" space or something similar. The other option is to shop around for someone who actually owns the space and uses most for their own business. They may have some surplus space they can rent you with fewer problems.
Koz
AL wrote:
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You won't see it in prime space, but a lot of smaller old building it is readily available. I know of some wee to week and partial month renters. Depends on location and the economy Ed

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I've done this with many, many bands, but not woodworking. I don't see why it would be all that different with woodworking.
Tips: Talk to some commercial realtors. They often have empty space that they'll rent cheap if you'll vacate it quickly, if necessary, and not require a lease. Paying in cash can help as well. <G>
GET INSURANCE! It counts for a lot with the folks above.
Make it known that you're a hobbyist, NOT a for-profit wood shop. Underscore the artistic side of the craft, as a potter or art photographer might.
Know any other locals? Form a club and you may be able to get some space, with a decent lease, by hooking up with them.
Talk to arts groups, like local theater groups or art guilds. They often know of warehouse style space available, off the beaten path, at reasonable rates.
Woodworking is artistic. Push the artsy side over the carpentry side when dealing with realtors and landlords. This can also reinforce the not-for-profit bent of the endeavor.
Be prepared to provide some sort of non-electric, portable heater.
Barry

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I've been keeping my eyes open for a wheelchair accessible space for a number of years here in Toronto, Canada. The 'accessible part' severely limits available choices. The accessible spaces I've found are too far away for regular usage of such a space or I get the rental offer of space if they can use my tools on occasion, which immediately wants me to run and hide. I tell them if they were renting me a garage to place a car, would they expect to drive the car? That usually shuts them up, but the available space evaporates soon after that.
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Pretty difficult if you have a number of woodworking machines to move on a moments notice. I went through this once and had to move everything into a 10'x10' storage facility at $100 a month. Four years later ($5000 worth) I sold or gave the tools away just to be shed of the cost.