Dope thinner

I was a little surprised when I worked this out, but it has been 46 years since I last built a model! Things have changed and I have forgotten a lot, so bear with me.....
Around the house I have paint thinner, lacquer thinner, acetone, alcohol, and MEK. Will any of these work as a solvent for dope (mostly cleanup)?
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On Mon, 30 Jul 2007 04:36:32 -0400, I said, "Pick a card, any card"

Ditch the MEK at a hazardous waste disposal site and use acetone. That should work for cleanup.
The MEK is very dangerous around the house. -- Ray
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Ray Haddad wrote:

So are ladders apparently.
And candles.

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On Mon, 30 Jul 2007 11:29:25 +0100, I said, "Pick a card, any card"

Unless the candles and ladders are made from asbestos, they're not carcinogenic like MEK. Very bad stuff. -- Ray
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"Ray Haddad" <> wrote

Not this again.
ALL you have to do to keep the MEK from being carcinogenic, is to wear rubber gloves while it is still liquid. When it soaks into your skin, it is not good for you.
--
Jim in NC



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On Mon, 30 Jul 2007 08:13:24 -0400, I said, "Pick a card, any card"

Or inhale it. It's just too nasty for words. Why even use it? There's really no need for it with other, safer compounds around. -- Ray
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Thanks for the warnings about MEK - I didn't know. I bought it for a project some time ago and haven't used it since. Thankfully, I was out doors and used gloves. Maybe I'll just get rid of it....
instead replied:

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Don't.
There are times that MEK is the only thing that will cut what you need it to.
--
Jim in NC



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On Tue, 31 Jul 2007 21:02:59 -0400, I said, "Pick a card, any card"

There's no such thing. There's always another solvent that will work. MEK was fairly universal, though. Dangerous but very versatile. Methyl-Ethyl-Keytone is a simple mix and is considered dangerous when used as a compound.
You're all missing the point when you defend this stuff. There ARE other compounds that work in its place that are safer, easier to store and don't carry toxic labeling.
Read this, oh non believers: http://72.14.253.104/search?q che:31BRtRzySCkJ:www.prism.princeton.edu/PRISM_cleanroom/MSDS/Methyl%2520ethyl%2520ketone.pdf+MEK+danger&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=1&gl=au Or: http://tinyurl.com/3cqhgs
You can debate the undeniable convenience factor until you're purple. You can pooh-pooh the safety data sheet and disregard it. All those are personal choices. Advising someone else, though? That's a horse of a different color. You can take your own bad advice. Just don't give it to someone who really doesn't know any better and is asking a legitimate question. Ignore safety warnings at your OWN peril. Not someone else's. End of story. -- Ray
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Ray Haddad wrote:

http://72.14.253.104/search?q che:31BRtRzySCkJ:www.prism.princeton.edu/PRISM_cleanroom/MSDS/Methyl%2520ethyl%2520ketone.pdf+MEK+danger&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=1&gl=au
Do you know that life has a 100% guaranteed mortality rate?
I think it should be banned. Now.
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On Wed, 01 Aug 2007 10:12:01 +0100, I said, "Pick a card, any card"

If that's the way you feel about it, report to the Soylent Green factory now. They have your number there.
On the other hand, life isn't banned while MEK is. -- Ray
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MEK is actually a pretty safe chemical compared to many things. It has an acute oral toxicity of roughly 4000 mg/kg which makes it rougly as toxic as table salt. Or several thousand times less toxic then sodium cyanide which I consider modestly toxic.
Most of a persons uptake risk is inhalation from air. Many acute tests have shown that such exposure is almost riskless. You do not get into a risk area until the concentration is so high that the MEK - air mix is flamable. If it is this high your main danger is the fire you are potentially sitting in.
In industrial settings where MEK is used daily several worker studies have shown LOWER cancer rates then expected rather then excess cancers.
MSDS sheets are essentually worthless for estimating risk. The reason is MSDS sheets are written by lawyers and intended to comply with all Federal and State laws. That means that they must comply with laws such as those by one state that have defined play box sand as a carcinogen. That is correct, I am not kidding. We have one state where you must have a cancer warning on every single bag of play box sand you buy for your kids sand box.
The result is about the only thing you can trust on an MSDS is the actual numbers, if any are present. The words are by and large meaningless. If mushrooms in your grocery store had an MSDS warning atttached you would never eat another mushroom due to cancer risk. If the medicines your doctor gives you had a MSDS you would never consider taking another pill. Some medicines are proven carcinogens in the doses normally prescribed. Including medicines that are taken daily by over 12,000,000 US citizens.
Can MEK kill you? Of course it can. So can too much water or table salt. Just use a bit of common sense. Do not clean your hands with it. Wear gloves. Use it in a reasonably ventilated area and preferably wear a chemical solvent mask you can buy at any hardware store. Do not use it to dissolve the wax in your ears.
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On Mon, 06 Aug 2007 07:21:18 -0700, snipped-for-privacy@scn.org wrote in

LOL!
This is the best laugh I've had from newsgroups in months.
Thanks for brightening my day!
I can just picture Joe Random Modeler holding a quart of MEK to his ear in his workshop while saying to himself, "This oughta do it."
                Marty
--
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On Mon, 06 Aug 2007 07:21:18 -0700, I said, "Pick a card, any card" and snipped-for-privacy@scn.org instead replied:

Then perhaps you should limit your chest thumping to describing how YOU use it while allowing the safe and sane among us to warn others of that danger. You can't have it both ways. It can't be perfectly safe and kill you at the same time. -- Ray
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instead replied:

Yes you can. Water is perfectly safe yet can kill you instantly.
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Keith Schiffner wrote:

Ergo, water is not perfectly safe.
That's the point these health and safety eejits don't get. Nothing is safe. Almost anything can kill someone. Health and safety used to be about using things in safe WAYS. Now it's about never letting people come into contact with anything that might harm them, ever. NOT good for developing a safety awareness.
Do you remember the fairy story abut the prince on whose birth, a witch prophesied he would be 'killed by a Lion'..his parents shut him in the castle and hunted the lions in the neighborhood to extinction..One day the prince, bored out of his tiny cossetted mind, went wandering into an old disused part of the castle, where he found a picture of a Lion hanging in the wall. He was so furious that he had a little temper tantrum, and banged on the picture with his fist. There was a rusty nail, he caught blood poisoning from it, and died...
Cf the Law of Unintended Consequences.
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How I use it is not particularly relevant and is not the way I would suggest you should use it. But if you really want to know I do not wear gloves, do not worry a bit about getting it on my hands or breathing minor amounts of fumes and do not wear a respirator. As solvents go it is one of the safer ones. A lot safer then any of the aromatics.
The facts are that MEK has never shown any epidemiological evidence of causing cancer in humans. It also has not shown up as a carcinogen in long term animal feeding tests. It does not show up as a mutagen in things like the Ames test.
Further, SAR (structure activity relationship) analysis says it should not be a carcinogen due to lack of the kinds of structural features that lead to carcinogenisis.
The most likely biological pathway for its breakdown would be to for your liver to oxidize it to 2,3 butanedione, which would subsequently be broken down on further oxidation to two molecules of acetic acid. As 2,3 butanedione is one of the chemicals in butter that give butter its smell and as acetic acid is the thing that makes vinegar vinegar I hardly think there is a great deal to worry about from metabolites.
All kinds of things are perfectly safe when properly used and exposures are limited. Yet those same things will kill you dead when misused. Ever hear of hyponatremia? Well two or three people in the US die of it every year. Quite a few more are saved by prompt medical attention. You get it from drinking too much water.
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On Mon, 06 Aug 2007 16:47:40 -0700, I said, "Pick a card, any card" and snipped-for-privacy@scn.org instead replied:

The reason for that is quite simple and seems to be ignored by you. The use of MEK is regulated thus saving lives that were formerly lost in greater quantities than your red herring argument. You've created a straw man that can't be compared to a substance that has been properly regulated because of toxicity to one of misuse by ignorance.
You don't seem to have the intelligence to advise folk who don't know that MEK is harmful so therefore you disqualify your own opinion. It is harmful. It should not be casually used particularly by a hobbiest in a non industrial environment.
As I have stated many times before, YOU can choose to use MEK all you want. Just don't presume to advise others to do the same. That's just plain pig ignorance and stubbornness. -- Ray
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As long as more people die in the US per year from hyponatermia then from exposure to MEK I guess you feel we should regulate exposure to drinking water?
Beauty is only skin deep but stupid goes clear to the bone.
What is it about technology that draws idiots from the wood work? There are a few guys on here with a brain like Moleski and TNP. But for every one with a brain there are five who shout loudly about things they know nothing about. No clue at all. Their only expertise is fear and superstition. Then they cry like gut shot animals when they are presented with facts that go against their ignorance. And too lazy to bother to spend five minutes doing a little fact checking on the net to find out they do not know what they are talking about.
You might try reading this link Ray. You seem highly concerned about cancer causing materials we are exposed to in our lives. You might find this educational about risks we accept without batting an eye when it is a pill our doctor tells us to take. If you read it carefully you will see that Healy says clearly that in her opinion there is no proven risk of cancer from short term exposure regardless of what one study showed. But she clearly leaves the door open on the results of long term exposures.
http://health.usnews.com/usnews/health/articles/070729/6healy.htm
Mrs Healy is the former head of FDA under Clinton, former chairman of Cleveland Clinic and an MD Cardiologist. She is also a very, very nice person. Back when I had need to talk to people like her she returned my calls personally. She did not shuffle me off to some second tier gofur like many people in high office usually do.
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What he said.
I suppose you can easily provide up with some government links, showing that MEK has been positively linked to cancer, with normal use. That should be easy, if it is as bad as you say.
--
Jim in NC



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