Dope thinner

On Mon, 06 Aug 2007 07:21:18 -0700, snipped-for-privacy@scn.org wrote in :

LOL!

This is the best laugh I've had from newsgroups in months.

Thanks for brightening my day!

I can just picture Joe Random Modeler holding a quart of MEK to his ear in his workshop while saying to himself, "This oughta do it."

Marty

Then perhaps you should limit your chest thumping to describing how YOU use it while allowing the safe and sane among us to warn others of that danger. You can't have it both ways. It can't be perfectly safe and kill you at the same time.

-- Ray

Yes you can. Water is perfectly safe yet can kill you instantly.

How I use it is not particularly relevant and is not the way I would suggest you should use it. But if you really want to know I do not wear gloves, do not worry a bit about getting it on my hands or breathing minor amounts of fumes and do not wear a respirator. As solvents go it is one of the safer ones. A lot safer then any of the aromatics.

The facts are that MEK has never shown any epidemiological evidence of causing cancer in humans. It also has not shown up as a carcinogen in long term animal feeding tests. It does not show up as a mutagen in things like the Ames test.

Further, SAR (structure activity relationship) analysis says it should not be a carcinogen due to lack of the kinds of structural features that lead to carcinogenisis.

The most likely biological pathway for its breakdown would be to for your liver to oxidize it to 2,3 butanedione, which would subsequently be broken down on further oxidation to two molecules of acetic acid. As 2,3 butanedione is one of the chemicals in butter that give butter its smell and as acetic acid is the thing that makes vinegar vinegar I hardly think there is a great deal to worry about from metabolites.

All kinds of things are perfectly safe when properly used and exposures are limited. Yet those same things will kill you dead when misused. Ever hear of hyponatremia? Well two or three people in the US die of it every year. Quite a few more are saved by prompt medical attention. You get it from drinking too much water.

The reason for that is quite simple and seems to be ignored by you. The use of MEK is regulated thus saving lives that were formerly lost in greater quantities than your red herring argument. You've created a straw man that can't be compared to a substance that has been properly regulated because of toxicity to one of misuse by ignorance.

You don't seem to have the intelligence to advise folk who don't know that MEK is harmful so therefore you disqualify your own opinion. It is harmful. It should not be casually used particularly by a hobbiest in a non industrial environment.

As I have stated many times before, YOU can choose to use MEK all you want. Just don't presume to advise others to do the same. That's just plain pig ignorance and stubbornness.

-- Ray

Ergo, water is not perfectly safe.

That's the point these health and safety eejits don't get. Nothing is safe. Almost anything can kill someone. Health and safety used to be about using things in safe WAYS. Now it's about never letting people come into contact with anything that might harm them, ever. NOT good for developing a safety awareness.

Do you remember the fairy story abut the prince on whose birth, a witch prophesied he would be 'killed by a Lion'..his parents shut him in the castle and hunted the lions in the neighborhood to extinction..One day the prince, bored out of his tiny cossetted mind, went wandering into an old disused part of the castle, where he found a picture of a Lion hanging in the wall. He was so furious that he had a little temper tantrum, and banged on the picture with his fist. There was a rusty nail, he caught blood poisoning from it, and died...

Cf the Law of Unintended Consequences.

As long as more people die in the US per year from hyponatermia then from exposure to MEK I guess you feel we should regulate exposure to drinking water?

Beauty is only skin deep but stupid goes clear to the bone.

What is it about technology that draws idiots from the wood work? There are a few guys on here with a brain like Moleski and TNP. But for every one with a brain there are five who shout loudly about things they know nothing about. No clue at all. Their only expertise is fear and superstition. Then they cry like gut shot animals when they are presented with facts that go against their ignorance. And too lazy to bother to spend five minutes doing a little fact checking on the net to find out they do not know what they are talking about.

You might try reading this link Ray. You seem highly concerned about cancer causing materials we are exposed to in our lives. You might find this educational about risks we accept without batting an eye when it is a pill our doctor tells us to take. If you read it carefully you will see that Healy says clearly that in her opinion there is no proven risk of cancer from short term exposure regardless of what one study showed. But she clearly leaves the door open on the results of long term exposures.

wrote

I suppose you can easily provide up with some government links, showing that MEK has been positively linked to cancer, with normal use. That should be easy, if it is as bad as you say.

No, you idiot. I am not stating any such thing. All I am stating is that YOU may choose to use MEK and become a statistic if you wish but do NOT inform others here that it is safe just because you want to turn a blind eye to the hazard. Make that choice for YOURSELF, not anyone else. How much simpler can that be stated?

MEK is regulated for a reason. If that reason is beyond your understanding then that is your loss. Don't be a fool and advise others to ignore safety just because you choose to do so.

-- Ray

Did you know there is enough arsenic n potatoes to get them banned by the FDA? If they weren't already part of our approved diet?

Enough mercury in teeth fillings to make burying or incinerating people a practice that should be strictly banned also, unless steps were taken to remove the teeth and recycle them?

Do you know that more people are killed falling downstairs in the dark trying to reset their earth current trips than are killed by electric shock (UK specific)

Do you know that you are far more likely to burn down your house from a candle than anything else. and that candles produce more carcinogenic pollutants than a cigaerette. Never mind. Let the priests in the catholic churches die of cancer.

Did you know that I estimated that if all the costs of making UK dwellings suitable for access by wheelchair users were added up and given to wheelchair users instead,they would be able to modify any house they wanted to live in to suit their needs completely?

I bet more modellers have smashed up limbs from props than are gasping their last from breathing dope fumes.,,now who has the definitive health facts on a witches brew of methanol, castor oil (or alternative) and nitromethane.

Not to mention some of the crap they put in gasoline instead of lead.. Seems to me that instead of getting smarter, people have gotten stupider since they banned lead..

So what? A bullet speeding towards you isn't a danger at all until it reaches you. Would you stand in front of one? Of course not. Would you advise someone else to do so? Apparently so. You have no reservations about advising others to use MEK.

This is not only unwise but immoral. Is that really how you want to be known here?

-- Ray

"Ray Haddad" wrote

How about it Ray? Did you miss my request for you to post a link to a government website, or government study, showing the positive links of MEK to cancer?

It shouldn't be that hard, if it is as bad as you say.

Don't be an idiot. Post a link where it states that it is safe. Go ahead. Do it.

And it shouldn't be hard at all for you to prove what you claim is true. The label of the MEK can itself proves my point.

You are unwise and immoral to advise others to use a dangerous chemical. Period.

-- Ray

If labels are trustworthy then of course you will never again get close to playbox sand as it is labeled as a carcinogen in some states.

Here is the USEPA version on MEK. Have fun reading.

Ray; et al....

Here's the MSDS on MEK.. No doubt it be nasty stuff, but it certainly is not known as a carcinogen; it that respect mother's milk is worse.

The horse is dead; no need to flog it more..

Cheers,

Bill

Dammit...........

Oops... Senior moment, again........ Here's the URL......

"Ray Haddad" > wrote

Now you are the idiot. Why would anyone write an article about it being safe? It is obvious that if you follow the safe use directions, that it is safe. No article, then. Not needed by anyone with common sense, which you are lacking.

On the other hand, it would be news if it was proven to be a carcinogen. There wouldn be posts all over the place, telling everyone to avoid it because it is a carcinogen, based on test X just done. Problem is, there is no test that has found that to be true. No article. No posts.

Osha has safe use standards, with personal protective equipment required, and maximum airborne concentrations. With these standards followed, there is no problem. Osha is notoriously conservative.

Now you done it. You pissed me off.

You know nothing of me, and my moral standards. You, on the other hand, are a lying piece of s*it. Period.

Can't be done, It cannot be proved to be safe. Nothing canm be proved to be safe.

Post me a link where it proves that glo fuel is safe.

Does nothing of teh sort: tons of useful things come with warnings all over them.

All chemicals are dangerous.