Should The Jon Banquer Blog...

Dan,
I was really talking you up a few weeks ago in South Carolina at a shop that was looking to purchase their first Swiss Lathe. I hope they
purchase one from you guys as I know you personally could help them tremendously so they can compete at even a higher level. I contacted George and gave him the shop info.
I'm assuming it's on a Tsugami Swiss?
To summarize all of those parameters for those tools in that material at that Hardness, I would suggest to target the coating. Eifeler-Lafer out of St.Charles IL (go see them while setting up at IMTS) has a coating called Sistral. It was developed for hard milling & turning processes. It can handle more heat, something like 30% more than TiALN and can handle the shock that the hard materials can send back to the cutting edge fracturing most coatings.
http://www.eifeler-lafer.com/sitemap.html there is contact info on this site but the Sistral is so new I see now that it's not on there. Talk to them and they brochures they can send you on it.
The material composition leads you into how difficult this material will be to machine it. 17% Chromium-7% Nickel and some Manganese and Silicon, used in many "Spring Type" applications besides medical and aerospace. So it's going to twist and bend before letting go of any chips while you try to defeat it with your tooling. But let's take each tool and see what can be improved slightly.
On the 1" Endmill. I would assume the inserts are the more accurate Ground not Molded inserts ? Something that has a tolerance class of E or C. Like a molded insert would say APMT and the ground insert would be APCT refer to this link http://www.lovejoytool.com/insnomen.htm since these inserts are ground to repeat and locate in the pocket more accurately and since they are ground to size they will slice through the material better too. In this instance the sharper tool would be great for slicing through the nickel and manganese. The hard coating will be good for the Chrome and Silicon, heat resistant and abrasion resistant respectively. If you are on a Swiss, I prefer to use a higher Helix (50 degree helix) 5 or 6 flute endmill so as flute # 1 is coming out of the cut, flute # 2 is in or nearly in the cut. This helps since in most Swiss machines the guide bushing is not clamped on the bar stock such as a vise would be holding a part in a mill, thus you are milling with a loose vise. So if the next flute is in the cut as the previous flute is exiting the cut, the tool doesn't take the shock of loading the material agains the side of the guide bushing once again. Most Insertable endmills will not kick the insert at that high of a simulated helix. I would look at possibly an Iscar Multi- Master screw-on tip endmill. They have them in larger diameters with multi flute, High Helix options. Talk to eifeler about putting the Sistral on it. Your current tool is running 200SFM at .003 Chipload which I would say is good safe place to start at with SFM but might be a bit too much on the chipload for the multimaster. Are the chips sticking to the insert at all? Have you ran this portion of the program dry ? Sometimes letting ALL of the heat go out with the chip is the way to go instead of trying to cool it while it's cutting.
For the 5/16" and 1/4" endmills, the 200 SFM again sounds fair to start at. I would make sure these endmills are made for the Mold Industry. That is, for Hard Milling applications. I have found that if the failure mode of a tool is that the material is work-hardening and the dull edge produces more rubbing action than preferred to the expected cutting action, then it's going to fail very soon after this point in time. However, if the substrate and coatings are designed for Hard Milling, even the hardness of the material won't contribute to the tool's failure as the tool is designed to cut in materials upto 70Rc. YG-1, OSG, Mitsubishi are just a few that produce these endmills.In essence you eliminated your failure mode.
On another note, and this applies to most all applications using ER collets. Look at the back of the collet and see how much of the actual diameter that is supposed to gripping the shank of the tool is actually counterbored which reduces the length that the shank is being held onto. See http://www.techniksusa.com/metal/cnadna1.htm to see an example of this. Techniks is simply the brand I use to illustrate the concept. There are other brands such as Nikken that offer the same concept. But this idea gives you more gripping power, the tool runs more accurately UNDER LOAD WHILE CUTTING not simply when you are putting an indicator on it during setup. More tool life can be expected as well as nicer surface finishes.
For the Key Cutter, If possible get a Helical Fluted design. We have them made near us for the medical applications, wrap it in Sistral again. I don't know what you're doing with it but I assume some type of undercut? Sometimes these tools are used to reach further into the part. If you are using a Harvey Tool or Internal Tool Key Cutter ask them to give you slightly more "dish" on the faces than the norm angle. This will give more clearance so if the tool moves a bit while cutting it doesn't immediately rub on the large face of the tool.
Seems to me that 200SFM is your safe zone. Stick with it. But to make the claim of raising the heat range to 700SFM is a big jump. Anytime I see 17% Chrome, 7% Nickel, my range of SFM is narrowed to +/- 50 SFM, not 500SFM. Turning is all about being sure the center line is adjusted according to where the chipbreaker is working the best due to the Depth of Cut and Feedrate. Tool Nose Radius amount comes into play also. Make sure your Depth of Cut is more than 1/2 of the Tool Nose Radius to stabilize it in the cut. On a Swiss you can get by with taking less due to the rigidity of the turning concept on a Swiss with the tool being in the cut right at the guide bushing. But don't be bashful to adjust your centerline up or down after you establish the depth of cut and feedrate that is giving you a good chip deformation. Again, Sharp Chipbreaker, Hard Turning Grade, Ground Insert would be the way I would go.
For the cutoff Tool, even as much as I love the Iscar Do-Grip system, try the NTK cutoff that has the serrations. You can find it here http://www.ntkcuttingtools.com/swiss/index.html On any cutoff due to these 3 things, width of the tool, the amount of feedrate and hardness/toughness of the material, there will be some downward or undercenter movement. (If the tool is upside down, yes it's going up but it's still undercenter) . The Iscar Do-Grip is either a self grip or a screw down design. Either pocket can fatigue quickly in an interrupted cut. The NTK Serrated style locks the insert nicely. Chances of this insert going behind center is slim. They lap the cutting edges so they are sharp plus they are in the 3mm width range so it should be sturdy enough to help with the interruption.
Horn has some new Swiss tools coming out at IMTS that are coolant induced and use standard ISO inserts. This may be helpful to concentrate oil flow into the true cutting zone.
After you get a satisfactory part off, try bumping the tools up something like 2-3% each in feed and speed until you see a difference( either good or bad) and if a tool begins to fail, back it off a bit. But don't stop the other tools yet. I think you will find out the 200 SFM range for turning will be safe because of the total amount of heat generated in this continous cutting action. However, with the endmills you will go up higher since you inheritly are breaking up the heat with each flute taking a cut.
I hope this is what you are choosing to run at IMTS. I would like to see it run.
Take Care Dan and keep up the great work out there in the field helping people be competitive. You are a true asset to American Manufacturing today.
JR
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On Sun, 13 Jul 2008 05:33:38 -0700 (PDT), JRWheels
<snip>

<snip> ==========Thanks for the detailed information. It is these posts that make AMC worthwhile. A very clear and info packed post.
Unka' George [George McDuffee] ------------------------------------------- He that will not apply new remedies, must expect new evils: for Time is the greatest innovator: and if Time, of course, alter things to the worse, and wisdom and counsel shall not alter them to the better, what shall be the end?
Francis Bacon (1561-1626), English philosopher, essayist, statesman. Essays, "Of Innovations" (1597-1625).
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Instead of purchasing some crap Casio calculator from a tool salesman who is a world class loser and often has no clues in regards to CADCAM, as well as many other areas of machining, here is a piece of software that I'm sure would pay for itself very quickly. I use the free version that Michael Rainey gave away for years because I don't need the estimating part of his program. I use ME Consultant to load values into my Mastercam tool libraries that I define by material. I could also further define my Mastercam tool libraries by machine but there is no need for that where I work.
http://www.cncci.com/products/mepro.htm
I was also given Machinist Toolbox by the author but I have not taken the time to see if I like it better than ME Consultant.
www.machinist-toolbox.com
Jon Banquer San Diego, CA
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Thanks I appreciate it.

Yes it is but since the part is short I'm running out of the headstock without a guide bushing. It's a new model SS20 that is very heavy duty for a 20mm machine. Particularly the milling. I have zero evidence of chatter even under high magnification.

So far the coating I'm using seems good. But given the eventual volume of this application every little improvement helps.

I'll give them a call. They aren't very far from me at all. Maybe 15 miles from my office.

I'm hesitant to say too much. I'm still competing for this business. But the part is disposable and widely used every day. Eventual volumes are in the millions.

I'll have to check in the morning but I'm aboout 90% sure they are AOCT inserts with a 0.015" radius. But they could be AOMT's.
They are working good. I'm thinking that I should try 2 passes per side rather than the 3 that I'm now taking at 0.035" DOC. Any thoughts?

With the set up I have and the rigidity of the machine the insert mill is kicking. I've talked to the Mfr. and they seem to think I'm at or near the limits at 200 SFM and 0.003" IPT. It sure doesn't seem like it though. So maybe heavier DOC is in order?
The two end mills are the replaceable tip type.

I'm using a prototype tool here where the shank of the end mill is the shape of the ER16 collet. I'm seeing less than 0.0002" TIR on the end mill tip and eliminating the collet connection makes a HUGE difference in rigidity under load.

Actually its milling a Woodruff style keyway in 4 places. It's shallow and again the tool I have is not bouncing at all but I'm thinking it could take more SFM. I'm using an off the shelf Harvey that's coated.

Another trick is to alternately have them grind a 45 or 60 degree angle half way across each tooth. It more or less gives the effect of a stagger tooth cutter.

The crap Kennametal insert (I didn't order) is handling 200 SFM. The insert I've ordered works real well in Nickel alloys like Inconel. Probably the best grade I've found. When I downloaded a hard turning pdf from the company I was surprised that this was the recommended grade for precipitation hardened stainlesses. They don't recommend the grade for the same material in the softer condition. I'm planning on starting at 400 SFM.

Heh. First thing I do is get the turning tools dead on center. Cut offs, groovers and threaders you want slightly above,
I have a problem with DOC. The bar stock the customer provided doesn't leave enough DOC for my liking but so far with the sharp coated grade from KM I've had good results. The new insert is very sharp too, but a totally different coating.

i was thinking about using something similar. But I had the Iscar on hand and so far it's working well.

I think I'll start with heavier DOC and eliminate one pass each on the 1.0" and 5/16" end mills. Then I'll kick it up from there. I think I'll also try kicking up the chip load.

It would be a good demo. Too bad it's a customer's part. But we are going to be cutting some 316 and Titanium.

You're making my head swell <G>.
Thanks. And if you have a chance give me a call later Monday or Tuesday morning. I should have it set back up by then and can fill you in with some more details.
--

Dan

CNC Videos - <http://tinyurl.com/yzdt6d
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On Sat, 12 Jul 2008 21:13:30 -0700 (PDT), JRWheels

<<snip>>
<<snip again>>
Reminds me of a..... err...situation? with one of my set-up guys, while running a CNC dept in Wisconsin back in '89.
Noticed him editing a program on a job that had been running for 2 days. When I asked him why, he said "this program's messed up."
Really! What's wrong with it?, I asked.
Awww....I can't get a good finish on the back turn, he replied.
Well...did you check the tool?
Yep. It needed sharpening, and now I can't get a good finish!
And you think it's the program?
Yep.
Wait a minute, I said. This job's been running great for 2 days, without any changes to the program. All you did was sharpen the tool. You now have a bad finish, and you want to change the program.
Yep!
Don't you think they're may be something wrong with the tool??
(here's come the pride) Puffs his chest up and says, "Not MY tool!"
I actually had to stand there and argue with this clown about it. Come to find out, he didn't use the clearances I had specified on the tooling lay-out. "A degree or two isn't gonna make that much of a difference, Matt!"
I told him, "I appreciate your tooling grinding abilities. Now all you have to do is learn how to follow directions! Look at your part, Dude. It looked better before you sharpened the tool! Now take your tool out and go grind it using the clearances on the tooling lay-out."
Pissed him off, but he got it running again without changing the program.
Matt
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wrote:

PDA
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On Sat, 12 Jul 2008 16:18:59 -0700, snipped-for-privacy@aol.com wrote:

Machinist Tool Box is a good program. Don't write it off just because Jon said he got it for free.
PC, PalmOS, PocketPC, Windows Mobile. Should run on some smart phones meaning at your fingertips unless cell phones are not allowed on the shop floor.
Tom
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On Jul 12, 3:36pm, snipped-for-privacy@aol.com wrote:

Certainly. But you're talking about replacing a simple calculator with a several hundred dollar piece of equipment with teeny-tiny buttons (or a touch screen)that very few machinist have or use. (Though I personally use an HTC Mogul, and plan on swapping it out this week for a Samsung Instinct).
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Instead of purchasing some crap Casio calculator from a tool salesman who is a world class loser and often has no clues in regards to CADCAM, as well as many other areas of machining, here is a piece of software that I'm sure would pay for itself very quickly. I use the free version that Michael Rainey gave away for years because I don't need the estimating part of his program. I use ME Consultant to load values into my Mastercam tool libraries that I define by material. I could also further define my Mastercam tool libraries by machine but there is no need for that where I work.
http://www.cncci.com/products/mepro.htm
I was also given Machinist Toolbox by the author but I have not taken the time to see if I like it better than ME Consultant.
www.machinist-toolbox.com
Jon Banquer San Diego, CA
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JR,
You are SO wrong!! 1. Yeah, mouse, keyboard, and monitor, true; but did you ever ask yourself why jb always types with only one hand?? That's like having a 24/7 friend.
2. He has a not just a friend, but a very sig. other--well, ex-sig. other-- who just finished doing jb's prison time in FL, and is VERY pissed about this. Check-kiting, bank fraud, all the things so consistent with downloading cracked copies of other people's shit.... I suggest you check in on and/or talk to jb as often as you can, *whilst* he's still around.
3. Likely his co-workers and even employer have a few things planned, as well.
See Cliff's HousePainter (7/10), with jb's new travails with a 1994 Sierra. Cluelessness apparently has no boundaries.
AMC is hobbling along, BB's and others' protestations to the contrary, but if just a few good people came back, it would likely be in full swing again! Interestingly, many good ngs sort of died, approx. within the same time period. Unless a ng has a constantly "renewable" subject, like cars for example (rec.autos .tech, where you'll find jb's ignerint azz), they seem to have their own life-cycle, ebb and flow.
jb is really just a boil on an asscheek, that just has to be lanced once in a while. No real biggie, yeah, messy-er than, say, high blood pressure, but ultimately not nearly as bad.
--
DT


>
> JR "The Loser"
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Instead of purchasing some crap Casio calculator from a tool salesman who is a world class loser and often has no clues in regards to CADCAM, as well as many other areas of machining, here is a piece of software that I'm sure would pay for itself very quickly. I use the free version that Michael Rainey gave away for years because I don't need the estimating part of his program. I use ME Consultant to load values into my Mastercam tool libraries that I define by material. I could also further define my Mastercam tool libraries by machine but there is no need for that where I work.
http://www.cncci.com/products/mepro.htm
I was also given Machinist Toolbox by the author but I have not taken the time to see if I like it better than ME Consultant.
www.machinist-toolbox.com
Jon Banquer San Diego, CA
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The Meltdown is way overdue. We know it's coming.... but WHEN???
--
------
Mr. P.V.'d (formerly Droll Troll), Yonkers, NY
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Instead of purchasing some crap Casio calculator from a tool salesman who is a world class loser and often has no clues in regards to CADCAM, as well as many other areas of machining, here is a piece of software that I'm sure would pay for itself very quickly. I use the free version that Michael Rainey gave away for years because I don't need the estimating part of his program. I use ME Consultant to load values into my Mastercam tool libraries that I define by material. I could also further define my Mastercam tool libraries by machine but there is no need for that where I work.
http://www.cncci.com/products/mepro.htm
I was also given Machinist Toolbox by the author but I have not taken the time to see if I like it better than ME Consultant.
www.machinist-toolbox.com
Jon Banquer San Diego, CA
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On Sun, 13 Jul 2008 09:08:59 -0400, "Proctologically Violated"
<snip>

<snip> ========My best guess was immediately after the US elections.
The news about Freddie, Sally and the failure of IndyMAC appears to indicate an accelerated time schedule. I would have expected that the regulators could use enough racer tape, bubble gum, hay wire and taxpayers money to keep things cobbled together until then, but then again they may have used up all the hay wire etc they had. http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20080712/bs_nm/fanniemae_freddiemac_wsj_dc ;_ylt=Aro2.AjC3FbqSysnZfWxUveyBhIF http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080712/ap_on_bi_st_ma_re/wall_street ;_ylt=AqR1u2hjC34gSbCKDss5yP.yBhIF
Currently the blame for IndyMac is being placed Sen. Schumer [D-NY] for upsetting their time table by asking the regulators in writing about the solvency of IndyMAC. http://rds.yahoo.com/_ylt WTTksCCXpIdFcBUxfQtDMD;_ylu=X3oDMTBjdmNoOTVjBHBvcwMyBHNlYwNzcg--/SIGp4lvb6u/EXP16043650/**http%3a//news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20080713/wl_canada_nm/canada_indymac_col_4 http://rds.yahoo.com/_ylt WTTksCCXpIdFcBVhfQtDMD;_ylu=X3oDMTBjcXBoZjEwBHBvcwMzBHNlYwNzcg--/SIGj25s37n/EXP16043650/**http%3a//news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20080713/ts_afp/usbankingcompanyindymacfinanceproperty_080713103945 http://rds.yahoo.com/_ylt WTTksCCXpIdFcBXBfQtDMD;_ylu=X3oDMTBjZGM1ZGE1BHBvcwM1BHNlYwNzcg--/SIGp2k5ud0/EXP16043650/**http%3a//money.cnn.com/rssclick/2008/07/12/news/companies/indymac_fdic/index.htm%3fsection=money_latest
The next one up on the hit list may be Lehman Brothers, who seem to be in about the same shape as Bear Stearns was [and making the same noises BS did] just before going belly-up. http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20080711/bs_nm/markets_stocks_lehman_dc ;_ylt=AnswxR8BVlahWVBrtLszdciyBhIF
A point to remember is that all corporate and regulatory firewalls have been removed and any one major failure has the potential to bring the entire house of cards down.
For example, one of the major mortgage players is GMAC through their Diatech Funding and ResCap[ Residential Capital] units. While GMAC is no longer wholly owned by GMC, they are still "on the hook," for any significant amounts of bad loans, including huge amounts of "upside-down" car loans. [Remember those 60 and 72 month 0 down, 0% interest offers?] Their partners [mainly hedge funds] also have considerable exposure, large amounts of investor funds, and huge amounts of leverage. When GMC goes into chapter 11, it has the potential to bring down many manufacturing and financial operations including the derivative players, in addition to dumping huge pension liabilities on the PBGC [and thus the American taxpayers]. Such a abrogation of pension responsibilities will have disastrous impact on not only the retirees who will loose not only significant income but also medical coverage, but the communities in which they live because of the lower amounts of money coming into the local economy and increased demands for social services. http://finance.sympatico.msn.ca/investing/gordonpape/article.aspx?cp-documentid 78206 http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid 601103&sidREd.COhlF4
There is yet an additional situation to consider in that the mid-east of today now resemble the Balkans in the Spring of 1914, needing only the slightest spark to ignite the powder kegs the major powers have created in the region, with the added complication that this area has vital resources which the Balkans did not, and thus even more potential to result in a major global conflict. I can only hope that Iran does not turn out to be another Serbia. We even have the precursor conditions of an extended "le belle epoch" which is beginning to fade, with the national leaders on all sides blaming external forces. It is well to remember that the assassination of Austrian Archduke Franz Ferdinand by a Serbian, June 28, 1914, was the *PRETEXT* for war, not its cause, which in large part appears to have been a cynical attempt to divert the peoples attention from the failures of foresight and leadership by the national leadership, most of which appear to have had minimal training, education or talent for their positions. One of the most telling comments was the reported last words of the Russian Foreign Minister Alexander Isvolsky (who did as much as anyone to ignite that catastrophe) "But we only wanted a little war." (when he was shot by a red firing squad) If you are interested in the run-up to that debacle I suggest Dreadnought by Massie. A long read but worthwhile. (Amazon.com product link shortened)
Unka' George [George McDuffee] ------------------------------------------- He that will not apply new remedies, must expect new evils: for Time is the greatest innovator: and if Time, of course, alter things to the worse, and wisdom and counsel shall not alter them to the better, what shall be the end?
Francis Bacon (1561-1626), English philosopher, essayist, statesman. Essays, "Of Innovations" (1597-1625).
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