Phase noise

Could someone please explain this ridiculous thing called "phase noise" to me? I understand it perfectly well when considering a phasor vector model,
but that, in itself, is a non-intuitive description. Phasor vectors are not intuitively understood (at least by me).
My troubles are rooted at this: If I consider that the phase of a perfect sine is simply a position on a time scale (i.e. a phase shift of a signal is the displacement, or delay, of the signal along the time axis) and noise is a jitter induced by random perturbations, then phase noise must be a horizontal jitter of a signal. But does that make since? Not to me. I can understand amplitude noise because the amplitude can have noise "riding" on it as time passes. But with phase noise, it sounds as though the noise is forcing a horizontal random motion. If I draw this on paper I end up with more than a single amplitude value per unit of time.
I don't think that I explained that well. I can draw (and then post) a picture of my problems if necessary. Long story short, I am trying to increase the signal-to-noise ratio in my brain!
Thanks, Blair
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
in article 3fd7deed_2@127.0.0.1, Blair at snipped-for-privacy@hotmail.com wrote on 12/10/03 7:04 PM:

Any modulation sitting on top of a pure sinusoidal signal will broaden its spectrum. That off carrier frequency content IS the noise.
Bill
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
Reply Part One.....
A sine wave motion repeats itself every cycle.
We want to represent and understand behaviour that is the same in every cycle, irrespective of whether it happens now, or in 10 minutes' time.
Behaviour against time, the traditional, "horizontal axis" is not helpful in visualising this "once every cycle" behaviour.
Sine wave motion is a projection from a rotating vector.
That behaviour seems to fit in with our need to visualise behaviour "once every cycle".
We choose the (admittedly strange) convention of the starting position pointing to the right and then rotating backwards, when a Westerner's inclination might be to follow the clock from 12 o'clock!
Having got our rotating model, we still have a problem with visualising it, and that is that it is rotating!
So what we do is to consider the instantaneous position, i.e., wherever "we" happen to be at any one time (even though "we" are rotating) and plot the phase of other things relative to us.
Thus we end up with the "phasor vectors"
BUT PLEASE REMEMBER.....
There is nothing "magic" about phasors!
There is nothing "right" about phasors!
There is nothing "electrical" about phasors!
They are nothing more than the model we have chosen to represent "once every cycle". If you want to contrive a different model to help your understanding, then you are free to do so!
If there is some characteristic of the Frozen Banana that you find to be analogous to understanding "once every cycle", then go ahead and use it.
e.g..... Q. "What is yellow, and always points to the North?"
A. "A Magnetic Banana".

Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
"Airy R. Bean" wrote on Thursday (11/12/2003) :

Why is this idiot deliberately cross posting?
--
Regards,
Harry (M1BYT)
  Click to see the full signature.
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
On Thu, 11 Dec 2003 23:16:06 GMT, Harry Bloomfield

to get you to bite ?
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload

Good lord. Are you serious? Who the hell are you to make such a post? Which is more useful a post such as yours "this idiot...cross posting", or a thorough response such as Bean's to a topical question? The newsgroup is for EE discussions. That's what we got. Keep your absurd posts to yourself.
On second thought. This was probably a flame. Wasn't it?
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
On 12/12/2003 "Blair" a wrote :

If you take the trouble to check, you will find the thread is being cross posted to uk.radio.amateur as well.
--
Regards,
Harry (M1BYT)
  Click to see the full signature.
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload

And /that/ is bad????
--
Floyd L. Davidson <http://web.newsguy.com/floyd_davidson
Ukpeagvik (Barrow, Alaska) snipped-for-privacy@barrow.com
  Click to see the full signature.
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload

Which
for
So what? My comment was regarding the caliber of post; his compared to yours. If there was a contest, and the topic was "which post is better suited for an electrical engineering forum," I'm afraid he would have you beat.
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
Blair wrote:

Airy Bean (Gareth Alun Evans) has a rather poor reputation for accuracy and understanding in the uk.radio.amateur newsgroup, which is where this is cross posted. He has a well deserved reputation as an idiot. His nom-de-plume is an anagram of the name of a respected poster to this group, for instance. If he continues to post to alt.e.e. you will soon find out why this post received the flames it did. Check his posting against some simple textbooks on the subject. You may well find it is a verbatim copy of one of them. uk.r.a sends its condolences to alt.e.e.
HAND
Andy Cowley
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
You are too kind Andy.
Airy Bean is ten times worse than you suggest.
"Care in the Community" gone wrong.
BobD.

Which
for
and
cross
an
he
received
--
Virus checked but not certified.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com ).
  Click to see the full signature.
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload

What would be wrong with cross posting that?????
--
Floyd L. Davidson <http://web.newsguy.com/floyd_davidson
Ukpeagvik (Barrow, Alaska) snipped-for-privacy@barrow.com
  Click to see the full signature.
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
"Floyd Davidson" wrote on Friday (12/12/2003) :

You obviously have not had much experience of Mr Bean's antics in the newsgroups.
--
Regards,
Harry (M1BYT)
  Click to see the full signature.
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload

The article was reasonable, and was cross posted to two groups where it appears to be on topic.
You obviously don't have a clue.
--
Floyd L. Davidson <http://web.newsguy.com/floyd_davidson
Ukpeagvik (Barrow, Alaska) snipped-for-privacy@barrow.com
  Click to see the full signature.
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
On 12/12/2003 "Floyd Davidson" opined:-

In this one exceptional instance I tend to agree with you, but as you seem to be completely oblivious to the true nature of Mr Bean, I refer your attention to several hundreds of his postings in a great number of technical groups. Take a look back through the archives of a.e.e u.r.a and uk.rec.models.engineering if you doubt the reasons for my objections.
--
Regards,
Harry (M1BYT)
  Click to see the full signature.
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
I don't know what it is that Mr.Bloomfield refers to as, "antics".
I have maintained a strong stance over many years that Ham radio is a technical pursuit. I see nothing wrong in that stance.
wrote:

Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
Airy R. Bean wrote:

See my recent posting about operating being a technical skill.
--
from
RVMJ
(dot) 99g (at) BTinternet (dot) com
  Click to see the full signature.
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
Floyd Davidson wrote:

Try a google or other archive search on the postings of Airy Bean (Gareth Alun Evans) to uk.radio.amateur and I think you will very soon realise that it is you who lacks sufficient background knowledge to make an informed judgement on the value of his postings.
HAND Floyd
best
Andy, M1EBV
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
I'm not sure if the comment was directed at me, if so, then his continuing childish remarks justify my ongoing ignoring of Mr.Bloomfield.
At the risk of seeming to be paranoid, I assume that Mr.Bloomfield's continuing use of childish forms of expression was directed at me, and answer accordingly.....
Ham Radio is a technical pursuit for those suitably motivated and qualified. it differs from CB Radio (And the new Brit form, the M3/CB licence) which are consumerist hobbies for the uneducated and direction-lacking man-in-the-street.
I cross-posted the topics because they are very relevant to the ongoing education of _REAL_ Radio Hams.
I can understand Mr.Bloomfield's jealousy, however, as I understand that he is trying to market some form of training course for Radio Hams and it is possible that he is showing bad grace at having been, inadvertently by me, upstaged, perhaps?
wrote:

Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
Airy R. Bean wrote:

Having recently got broadband, can one say that the quality aforethought that goes into your posting has not improved?
Try harder.
--
from
RVMJ
(dot) 99g (at) BTinternet (dot) com
  Click to see the full signature.
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload

Polytechforum.com is a website by engineers for engineers. It is not affiliated with any of manufacturers or vendors discussed here. All logos and trade names are the property of their respective owners.