Cheneys hunting buddy has a heart attack

That's similar to how I feel. I am also pro gun and the only reason why I let my NRA membership lapse is that I have an NRA credit card and NRA gets a percentage of what I spend. Which, I feel, is enough.

For a shooter to shoot a person, there have to be multiple, gross violations of safety rules. Safety rules are designed so that a single violation is unlikely to result in injury. That Cheney was "shooting in the dark", as I heard mentioned, was an outrageous practice. I would not be surprised if there were other violations of accepted safety practices.

I want to know details.

Hunter shot Buddy?

Gunner? Are you still with us?

Ed! Why? I thought you guys were only debating!

WELL CHENEY GOT A GUN CHENEY GOT A GUN THE WHOLE WORLD'S COME UNDONE FROM LOOKIN' STRAIGHT AT THE SUN

I think of Gunner as a backstop, not as a target...

-- Ed Huntress

Speaking of targets, where were all the security people that should have been present? Did they know, ahead of time, that if they were along they could also become "targets" and decide instead to hang out back at the ranch? ;)

dennis in nca

Yeah right! Let's see how this story plays out in 12 hours...

Richard

This is what I've read in two newspaper articles and on the net.

There were 3 hunters plus the land owner, who was not hunting, in the hunting party. (Plus, I assume, numerous Secret Service agents and the ambulance attendants that were said to be standing by due to Cheney's health problems.)

According to the land owner, Whittington had shot a bird and had gone into some tall grass to retrieve it. He was rejoining the others who had gone on ahead. At this time, another covey flushed and Cheney was swinging on a bird that flew to his rear. The bird was in line with Whittington as Cheney fired. He was hit in the cheek, neck and chest.

A preliminary sheriff's report stated that neither drugs nor alcohol were a factor. All of the hunters were wearing orange vests. The distance from Cheney to Whittington was 30 yards. Cheney had a non-resident Texas hunting license but did not have the Upland Game Bird Stamp. He was issued a citation and bought the $7.00 stamp.

I've been peppered with birdshot before. It stings but only once did it penetrate the skin. And I realize the skin of a 78 year old is much thinner. I set out to find some information on shotgun ballistics.

Remember that with birdshot, smaller pellets have higher numbers. Number 6 shot is twice the weight of number 8 shot. Typical shot sizes for quail are 7 1/2, 8 and 9. I picked number 8 for my research because it is the middle size.

Most of the info came from gunshot forensic sites.

Number 6 was the smallest size pellet listed. An individual pellet has a muzzle energy of 3 ft/lbs. It will penetrate ballistic gelatin (equivalent to human flesh) 4 to 6 inches at a range of 5 yards. Since a number 8 is half the weight of number 6, it would have 1.5 ft/lbs of energy.

What I could not find was the velocity at 30 yards. The muzzle velocity is about 1200 ft/sec. The drag coefficient of a sphere at this speed is about 1.27. Maybe someone can calculate the downrange speed and therefore the remaining energy at 30 yards.

I did find some state wildlife statistics that said only 42% of birds would be hit and only 10% of birds HIT at that range would die.

Depending on the choke of Cheney's gun, up to 187 pellets could be expected to hit in a 30 inch circle at 30 yards. That jives with the doctor's estimate of 200 hitting Whittington. Probably less because no man can cover a 30 inch circle with his body.

"Andy Asberry" wrote

I saw the drawing today of the Texas hunting officials. Man, he really peppered him, and the marks where it hit the old bird were pretty concentrated in the upper left chest quadrant, the neck, lower jaw and face.

Looks like a full choke or even a turkey choke. Well, maybe not, but he did catch a lot of shot in a small area.

That had to hurt.

Steve

another covey flushed and Cheney was

Now there is an interesting sentence...

The bird was in line with

Thanks Andy. I am very confused. How can birdshot, at a distance of 30 yards, penetrate Whittington so deeply. It does not make sense to me. My shotgun experience is very limited, as I rarely shoot my shotgun and usually shoot rifles.

What, now it's illegal to use a lawyer as a bird dog in Texas? Who knew?

thesmokinggun (.com I think?) has the police report online. Pretty complete description of what was recorded to have happened, details like clothing color and all that.

Dave

"Ignoramus7443" wrote

This past year, we had a buffer crop of quail here in the Las Vegas area. Some years, we have none.

I have hunted with a Remington 870 Wingmaster for nearly thirty years now. But, I got a Remington 1100 a while back in a good deal. The 870 has a 28" modified choke barrel. The 1100 has a 26" with the changeable chokes. The

I took it out and set up a long piece of butcher paper. I paced off thirty paces, the distance that I would approximately be shooting at, and fired dead center.

I was thoroughly amazed at how many pellets hit within a 6" x 6" square. IIRC, it was about 35. If it was a human silhouette, the number would have been much greater. I was shooting #8 shot low base. Lots of people shoot high base which gives higher velocity, and less spread for the same distance.

Tighter chokes like full and turkey will give even tighter patterns.

Take your shotgun out and do some practice shots on paper and on targets. You will be surprised.

Steve

I think the incident is over blown. Anybody worth his salt that goes hunting regularly has been peppered once or twice by somebody, it just happens. Unfortunately this shot was close up. If the Vice -President is using a 28 gauge as reported he must be a very good shot as this gauge is not that potent compared to a 12 gauge. Accidents happen, I hope he recovers fully and you anti-gun, anti-Bush followers can go suck an egg.

Damned right. If Bush or Cheney shoot somebody, that's their business. Executive priviledge, and all that.

-- Ed Huntress

Whittington was in a washout - a depression - so only his head and upper torso were visible. The Chaney stated the first I saw him was as he dropped.

That had to been a heart stopper for Chaney at the time! Normally a dog or someone gets it in the behind - since the orange doesn't show well while bending over.

Martin

Martin Eastburn @ home at Lions' Lair with our computer lionslair at consolidated dot net NRA LOH & Endowment Member NRA Second Amendment Task Force Charter Founder

Steve B wrote:

Well, you do have to admit that down through history, presidents, and even lowly Congressmen did get away with quite a bit when compared to the "average" man.

I won't mention any names, but some of them were even Democrats.

Steve

Let's see if we can now deflect attention from the fact that our current veep, Vice President Strangelove, is probably the most bizarre freak we've had in that office in a generation.

As a former NRA Safe Hunter instructor, an NRA- and NY State-certified rifle instructor, a hunter for 46 years, and a former DCM range officer, I have an opinion about hunting accidents that involve shooting somebody who is

FWIW, most of the time -- not always, but most of the time -- a guy who shoots somebody in a hunting accident is a boob and a f*ck-up. This sounds like one of those to me. They probably do their quail hunting a little differently down South but I don't think that shooting your hunting partner is part of the routine, is it?

-- Ed Huntress

As a former Marine pistol range instructor, I agree that Mr. Cheney shouldn't be using a weapon without additional hunter safety training. It's the "Vice President Strangelove" and "bizarre freak" part that I don't get. Sounds like something out of a Michael Moore movie. GW