I lurk here quite a bit, and have been following the threads on Kat and NO. What I can't seem to understand is the fact that with a hurricane, you KNOW it's coming. Not like an earthquake or volcanic eruption or even a tsunami. You have ample warning. The comparison to the tsunami of December is apples and oranges. The aftermath is comparable, yes, but not anything else.
We have conditioned certain parts of society to rely on the gov'mt for daily survival. Social services that supress individual responsibility is one place to start pointing the finger. And they have fallen for it, we did it to the black community, the native american community, and anyone else that would prefer a hand out instead of a hand up.
We did it with our elected officials, and we share in the blame.
Sorry for all who got sucked into the whole process and then the process failed them.
You are right though, when you ask the question "Whatever happened to Basic Survival 101?" It is gone, as uncommon now as that classic thought from the past, "common sense."
We have met the enemy, and he is us.
George
That pretty much went away when the government started handing out welfare to anyone who did not feel like providing for themselves.
Same mentality. I do not feel like working so give me welfare. I do not feel like surviving on my own, so I will complain and bitch until they send me food and water.
The other problem is that welfare (and what other I do not feel like providing for myself funds) checks were long gone. As in a couple of days after they get the checks, the money is gone. So had the storm hit after the first of the month, more people might of had enough money to get out, or stock food.
I do fear that later down the road they will blame the government. In that the government should of scheduled the storm to arrive the day of, or day after the welfare checks were issued. Or something like that. Either way it will not be the individuals fault but the governments.
Than again, a lot of people stuck around just because what is happening now.
Life-guard of the gene poll.
">snippage"
..
Roger your observations, and to answer your question, sadly, yes it appears at least in NO basic survival instinct has been breed out of many. And civilized conduct replaced by predatory instinct.
I live in a class 3 earthquake zone and have made extensive disaster preparations. I hope that I've covered all possibilities.
My sister inlaw who live in NewEngland (liberal politically) shocked me with the remark that a handgun is now going to be a necessary item to learn to use. I hope this a wakup call for those not disposed to preparedness in this era of having to watch your back all the time.
DE
Hopefully your sister is not in MA. In order to get a permit for a handgun in MA, you have to say it is for target practice. If you tell them it is for protection of your home and family, your application will be denied.
Go figure.
Drivel
I think it's called: "Reverse Darwinism" and THAT should be taught in public schools. Let's subsidize the stupidest of the species and make sure THEY reproduce. Apparently smarter people aren't as gullible or controllable.
"doo" wrote: (clip) I think if I had made the decision to stay, I would have filled every container I could find with water. Filled the bathtub, pots, pans, buckets..anything while the system was working. Stocked up on canned goods, candles, heating sources. If I hadn't secured a source of fresh water beforehand, I certainly woudn't be on CNN stranded on the roof of a hotel, whining about no water. Damn, you got all the water you need, just gotta make it drinkable. Build a still, burn whatever you have to to boil it, (clip) ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ You are unreal! Did you look at any of the pictures of the poor people struggling to survive? Thousands died. And you think you would have been on the roof of the house with boxes of canned goods, and tubs of potable water? Or you're thinking of building a fire to boil the water--on the roof of the house? Come on!
Not all of us. Yes, I voted, but not for the majority parties. I'd have sooner voted for myself than those morons. It's clear to me that people running for public office have their own good will in mind, certainly not that of the people.
Harold
Good point Harold.
Problem is the backing of the two parties makes the people really worth voting for unheard. Running for office = ego trip (at least among the two parties), if they win it does surely seem for their own good will.
Our founding fathers are surely turning in their graves, seeing the self serving politicians we have today.
Do you have to specify what targets you intend to "practice" on? Sad, as it probably won't be long before even target practice isn't reason enough.
But then, in a survival situation, there's unregulated alternatives for enterprising individuals:
Jon
Please do not give the liberals any new ideas.
If they did ask I would answer, "Any moving target on my property that does not belong there".
Rumor is that you have to take a class now to get an FID. Nice welcome back for our military people.
I disagree with the assumption that leaving the city was the right thing to do, given what they knew then. Hint: no one knew or could guess that the levees would break. That was the catastrophe, not the hurricane as such. I will appreciate being corrected if I am mistaken, but that was not foreseeable, notwithstanding some long standing warnings of researchers that the levee system was not as good as it should be.
Why should I leave my house if a mere hurricane is coming. I would rather stay in it, given that chances are that it will stay intact. And then I need to defend the house against marauding gangs and looters etc.
i
There was a cat 5 storm bearing down on a city with levies designed to withstand a cat 3 storm. I am no fortune teller here, but good enough reason for me to leave.
Than again you bring up a good point. Staying to defend against looters. In a perfect world this would not be the case. We could leave our home and save our lives and assume that our goods will be safe from looting. Than again, not much you can do with your goods when you are a floating dead corpse.
We have seen that NO is by far a perfect world, so common sense might not indeed apply.
Ignoramus21934 wrote in news:X6JSe.203$j% snipped-for-privacy@fe28.usenetserver.com:
Given what they knew and when: There was a catagory 5 hurricane bearing down on a city which at best had a levee system that would be overwhelmed by a cat 3. Maybe you've never been in a hurricane, but a cat 5 storm is the equivelent of having an F3 tornado parked over your house for most of the day. Very few structures will survive, no stick built house will.
The people who stayed and survived are damn lucky to be alive. Fortunately for them the hurricane downgraded to a cat 4 and went well east of New Orleans. The hurricane's track can't be known for sure until just a couple of hours or so before it hits. The ONLY sensible thing to do is leave.
Most of the news coverage has been about New Orleans. But they have showed the area where the storm came ashore. There are no damaged buildings there. The building are all gone, until you get a couple of miles inland. The people who stayed to "ride it out" are all gone too. Their bodies will likely never be recovered, as they were ground to bits by the debris and washed out to sea. And that was a cat 4 storm when it made landfall.
Can you imagine what would have happened if the storm had been a direct hit on New Orleans? The wind would have taken down most every stick built building along with the roofs of everything else. The levees would have failed at the height of the storm. There would be no chance for rescue. You can't use a boat, car or aircraft in 100+ mph winds. There is nothing in my house worth the risk. Let the looters have it. They'll be dead soon enough.
Since the hurricane, people have blamed Bush, the federal government, republicans, deomcrats, poverty and racism. The simple fact of the matter is that the local government didn't have an effective evacuation plan. There were no provisions in place to evacuate the elderly, infirm and those with no transportation.
There is no way to build a city, much less a city in a delta, to withstand a cat 5 hurricane. Evacuation is the only sensible cost effective way to deal with it. Unfortunately New Orleans has a long history of corrupt ineffective goverment on the local level. So there was no workable plan in place. Had the city been evacuated, the speed of the response wouldn't be an issue.
For those who say people shouldn't live in flood plains and along the coast consider this; everyone in this country benefits from the Port of New Orleans. We need deep water ports and guess what? They are all along a coast somewhere. Subject to floods, hurricanes and tsunamis. We need the oil that flows from the Gulf. We use the products from the refineries. We've all eaten seafood harvested from the area. Should we expect the people who do all of the hard work in the area to commute 100+ miles to get to their jobs because there might be a hurricane or flood someday?
Throwing blame and bitching about coulda, woulda, shoulda, is pointless anyway. Send a check, as much as you can afford, to help these folks out.
As a country we should be thinking about a temporary tax or tax increase of some sort to pay for all of this, and get the port back up and running. It wouldn't be a bad idea to start paying for the foolishness in Iraq as well, instead of passing the bill along to our kids and grandkids.
To me, you are unreal. Yes, a lot of people died. Some lost entire homes. But if I had given YOU at least 24 hour notice that power was going out, water would be unavailable and food scarce, could you not find SOMETHING to put some water in, maybe grab a can or two of soup or beans, and head for higher ground? The people I saw on the news whining about water were on unflooded streets, on the third floor, and nobody thought to secure basic needs. (My personal opinion is they partied out them storm, then realized too late the magnitude) Also, I can't believe that the people on the rooftops in the harder hit areas found themselves in twenty feet of water in 30 seconds. They had time to make the rooftop, they should have had a jug of water or SOMETHING with them. Hell, they had at least 24 HOURS to prepare. Not
30 seconds. I don't know about you, but if I were to be found dead, I'd rather it be drowned, naked, clutching a sack with water and food than from dehydration, clothed, on a rooftop with a coupon for a free Whopper in my pocket(which I feel would make me look REAL stupid!).So, hide in the attic for a tornado, and the basement for a flood.
I think it can be summed up in one saying "Lifeguard of the gene pool"
In wake of the recent tsunami that killed thousands, it should be clear that you cannot stop mother nature. More people die in floods than any other form of nature disaster. Are these smart people? I would guess a good many of them are low in the IQ part.
Mankind gave us the technology to provide a clear warning to these people. The smart ones left. I think once again we are forced to deal with the stupid ones. Again stupidity is the black eye to this whole mess. Granted there are exceptions. The city should have a plan for the elderly or disabled to get out, but this, as reported, failed. The rest of the healthy people depend on the government to do everything for them (read welfare), and did not get out. The government did not fail these people, these people failed themselves. Please do not tell me that they could not get out of the city ( save for the disabled and handicap). I am sure that if you told most of these people that there were free $200 Nikes 50 miles outside the city, they would of been there in droves. Priorities are different for the most that are stranded.
The SMART ones left. You now see them returning in their cars to the their unfortunately destroyed homes. They are also starting or planning to rebuild. These same people you will not see begging for hand outs. Just as you did not see them taking handouts before the storm. The black eye will come from people who are already receiving government handouts, and expect the government to continue giving them handouts after the storm.
Where in the Constitution does it say the government will protect the stupid from floods and hurricanes?
I just think a lot less death and resulting issues would of been easily avoided if people had used common sense and left. The smart ones left, the smart ones are returning and rebuilding, without blaming the government, nor taking anything from the government.
Other than that I wish the smart ones the best of luck in rebuilding after the disaster.
Dan That is the best wisdom I have heard yet. I was thinking last night about all the finger pointing and whining about who didn't do what. The lefty liberals are this and the right wingers did that. I think the 2.5% from the far left that want to tax us to death and the 2.5% from the far right that don't want to pay their fair share of taxes should get the hell out of our country and start one of their own. In the mean time we as citizens should stand up and do our part to set this disaster right. Steve
Being from south Texas I find the above inadvisable. I was about 6 yrs. old in San Antonio when Beulah hit and got a good idea of the destruction on TV with boats in houses. Celia hit a couple of yrs. later and I remember seeing wave after wave of storms just like the satellite pictures of the arms of the hurricanes. In '80 I was in the Rio Grande Valley and watched Allen get closer and closer. My friends wanted me to stay for a hurricane party where you stock up on booze, candles, and food and then sit around the house for a week. Not my idea of fun, so I took a vacation to visit my mom in northern Wis. When at peoples' houses they'd all ask where I was from with that funny accent and I would point at their TV and say "You see that big swirling monster?" I went back about 7-10 days later and there was nothing but water on both sides and in the middle of the highway as far as I could see and remember thinking that I should have waited longer. The road trips were better than a week of canned food, no shower, and no clean clothes.
I can't imagine staying within levees below sea level and relatively right next to the surf. Florida isn't much better, what is it 20' above sea level? If I had to have a house in FL. it would be on poles with plenty of shaded parking underneath and everything would be screwed and bolted together.
Call it paranoia or what ever, but hurricanes are not to be played with. Most of the gulf coast's topography is flat with nothing to slow them down. You can drive a hundred miles inland and the elevation gained about the height of a simi. and the water table is a post hole down. Out here in the desert they frequently have 75mph sand storms that are wicked enough for me. I've had my hand out the windows of fast cars and planes at 150mph and have a hard time seeing a house hold up to it.
While I'm on the subject, can ya'll imagine if there where a couple of national happenings like riots and such at the same time? Gunners survivalist philosophy would be sounding more like a great idea.
No doubt, Florida is hurricane country; all of Florida. That said, the main damage from Katrina was not from the storm itself, but from the storm tide. The worst possible storm tide on the Atlantic side of Florida is a fraction of what you can see in the Gulf. Besides, 20' over sea level beats the stink out of 20' BELOW sea level.
Vaughn
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