Israel has a right to be nervous. If they gave up on the quasi-religious bigoted paranoia and tried to work _with_ their neighbours and those whose land they occupy, there would not quite so much desire amongst those neighbours to wipe them off the face of the earth. Supporting their deluded world view and continuing atrocious behaviour does nothing to stabilize the region.
On Tue, 01 Sep 2009 00:43:58 +0100, the infamous Mark Rand scrawled the following:
OTOH, anyone supporting the quasi-religious bigoted paranoia, deluded world view, and continuing atrocious behavior of the Arabs does nothing to stabilize the region, either. These hacks have been hacking at each other for 4 millenia. A few democrazies aren't going to faze them.
-- Good intentions will always be pleaded for every assumption of authority. It is hardly too strong to say that the Constitution was made to guard the people against the dangers of good intentions. There are men in all ages who mean to govern well, but they mean to govern. They promise to be good masters, but they mean to be masters. --Daniel Webster
We'll never agree about this, and my opinion of Israel is not what you probably assume. But the idea of "working with their neighbors" suggests to me an unrealistic view of their history -- and especially an unrealistic view of their neighbors.
If the Israelis had the opportunity, they probably would wipe out their neighbors. As for the neighbors, they've proven multiple times that they would do the same.
Given the atrocities that were carried out to the Jewish people before and during the last war, it is almost beyond belief that their descendants are behaving in a similar manner towards their neighbours and the owners of the land they are occupying.
Until they can comprehend that the only solution is a diplomatic one and will involve giving back some of what they have stolen, there can only ever be hatred on both sides.
Propping them up with armaments only exacerbates the problem. It hasn't worked for the last 60 years.
Tight sanctions for a few years would be far more effective in encouraging a diplomatic solution that continuing arms supplies.
This isn't anti Semite, the Palestinians and Arabs are also Semites!
You might not agree with this analysis. But then, I'm completely impartial and you aren't :-|
Actually,,its worked very very well. In the 6 times the Islamic nations attempted to murder every living Jewish man, woman and child..the Jews won. And didnt increase the size of their nation by a single square foot. They could have taken the entire middle east as a prize each and every time.
So OvenMeister...why DO you hate jews so much?
Whenever a Liberal utters the term "Common Sense approach"....grab your wallet, your ass, and your guns because the sombitch is about to do something damned nasty to all three of them.
Unfortunately this isn't the case. That was how our conversation got started. That and my young friend mentioned that he'd had his MOS changed. He's going over as a convoy scout. I thought at first he meant he's been assigned duty as a Recon Marine but that wasn't it. His squad will be out in front of transport convoy's in Hummers to check the roads for IED's and the reason he wanted to look me up and have a word was the duty I pulled first, at the Forward Observer Infantry Training School, and then at the Jungle Warfare Training Center as an instructor. One, in Ahn Khe and the other, Bon Song. Unknown to me, his Officer had recommended the visit. We'd met at a party when the unit was notified of their change from reserve status to active duty.
I ended up describing TET, and the results, to him as well as how that situation mirrored today's dilemma in Afghanistan. In all of America's history in RVN, we never really lost a battle. America's armed forces unleashed hell on Earth, year after year on a country the size of a large postage stamp. We defoliated a third of the country and I've seen track mounted artillery manned by Marines fire until the barrels of their guns made the air around them shimmer while filling an area the size of a football field or more with spent brass. Those units were receiving ammo as fast as it could be brought up and they just busted open the packing with iron bars and fired the stuff. I've seen an ARCLIGHT from as near as 2 KM and that's way too close, even for an observer.
During TET, the North Vietnamese Regular Army was wiped out, very nearly to the last man. So were the irregular's. We killed thousands of them. Tens of thousands. I ordered concentrated artillery fire on a wooded area where we thought, just thought mind you, a short battalion of enemy were laying low. Three Bn's worth, TOT for fifteen minutes of AP quick. Then we brought in rockets, napalm, and because they were lingering, Spooky. In the end, an area about one Km wide to our front and two deep just ceased to exist except as a brush fire. You couldn't even tell the area had been inhabited - even by snakes, bugs or roaches. The Navy came in the following morning and lit the area up all over again.
I'll bet that, or something like it, happened a thousand or more times in the course of the six month's following TET. But here is the point. None of that mattered, and that was what we all came to understand, because in spite of all of that shit, they didn't give up.
We just couldn't "persuade" them to quit.
Will is right. I read his piece this afternoon as well as Bill Kristol's mewling response to it.
What I'd do if it were my call is put two hundred air conditioned trailers out on the range at Edwards and have the guys there drive UAV's over Afghanistan 24/7/365. Everybody would get three squares, dinner and a movie with the family every day. Everyone, that is, except the enemy, several thousand miles away.
That is the answer to the question Bill Kristol poses.
And then Walter Chr quote: We have been too often disappointed by the optimism of the American leaders, both in Vietnam and Washington, to have faith any longer in the silver linings they find in the darkest clouds. They may be right, that Hanoi's winter-spring offensive has been forced by the Communist realization that they could not win the longer war of attrition, and that the Communists hope that any success in the offensive will improve their position for eventual negotiations. It would improve their position, and it would also require our realization, that we should have had all along, that any negotiations must be that -- negotiations, not the dictation of peace terms. For it seems now more certain than ever that the bloody experience of Vietnam is to end in a stalemate. This summer's almost certain standoff will either end in real give-and-take negotiations or terrible escalation; and for every means we have to escalate, the enemy can match us, and that applies to invasion of the North, the use of nuclear weapons, or the mere commitment of one hundred, or two hundred, or three hundred thousand more American troops to the battle. And with each escalation, the world comes closer to the brink of cosmic disaster.
To say that we are closer to victory today is to believe, in the face of the evidence, the optimists who have been wrong in the past. To suggest we are on the edge of defeat is to yield to unreasonable pessimism. To say that we are mired in stalemate seems the only realistic, yet unsatisfactory, conclusion. On the off chance that military and political analysts are right, in the next few months we must test the enemy's intentions, in case this is indeed his last big gasp before negotiations. But it is increasingly clear to this reporter that the only rational way out then will be to negotiate, not as victors, but as an honorable people who lived up to their pledge to defend democracy, and did the best they could. :end
Let the Record show that Mark Rand on or about Tue, 01 Sep 2009 20:07:27 +0100 did write/type or cause to appear in rec.crafts.metalworking the following:
Yeah, that diplomacy thing works out so well. When the other side is willing to let you live. How's it going with the "No Locks Here" sign on your door? You wouldn't want to offend someone by barring their entry?
So, you are in favor of letting someone else do all the actual dirty work of killing off the Jews, poistine ne?
True. On the other hand "Anti-Semite" was coined because the expression ""Jew hatred" was just so ... common.
Yeah, right. You're amoral, and unable to make a judgment about minor things like good and evil.
- pyotr filipivich We will drink no whiskey before its nine. It's eight fifty eight. Close enough!