OT: A target for Gunner

No Gunner I'm not prodding or teasing, honest! :-)
I came across this statement in a Tom Clancy novel--
"There was another lesson of history: Liberal democracies don't make
war on one another"
Aw that can't be true I thought to myself, but I couldn't think of an
instance. Bet that fire-breating old anti-liberal Gunner could though!
Taking the modern definition of liberal if you insist it's different,
can you shoot this duck down?
## To err is human. To purr feline.
Reply to
John Ings
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Depends on how you define liberal. Is India liberal? Is Israel?
Reply to
Nick Hull
What liberal democracies have either made war against?
Reply to
John Ings
is that Neo Liberal, or Classical Liberal?
Gunner
That rifle hanging on the wall of the working-class flat or labourer's cottage is the symbol of democracy. It is our job to see that it stays there. - George Orwell
Reply to
Gunner
You dont think that Classical Liberal is different from todays Neo Liberal?
Chuckle..John..Im a Classical Liberal. You are a Neo Liberal. Are we the same?
Gunner
That rifle hanging on the wall of the working-class flat or labourer's cottage is the symbol of democracy. It is our job to see that it stays there. - George Orwell
Reply to
Gunner
If we can make a list of 'liberal democracies' then we might be able to test the hypothesis, unless 'liberal democracies' are defined as countries that have never made war against each other.
Reply to
Nick Hull
So take your neo definition, since it's obviously the one Clancy meant.
Reply to
John Ings
Ok, so give me a list of Neo Liberal countries.
Gunner
That rifle hanging on the wall of the working-class flat or labourer's cottage is the symbol of democracy. It is our job to see that it stays there. - George Orwell
Reply to
Gunner
But that's what I was asking YOU for Gunner! Surely you have them all categorized?
## Thousands of years ago, cats were worshipped as gods. ## Cats have never forgotten this.
Reply to
John Ings
Ah..no. You asked me for a list of them that went to war with each other. Id like a list of those you consider neo liberal so Ive got your baseline criteria established and can then work on the task.
Personally, I dont know of any Neo Liberal nations. Lots of Socialist ones, some totalitarian ones, quite a number of democratic based ones, some fascist ones and a diminishing number of communist ones. The Socialist ones are close to Neo Liberal..in many cases indistinguishable..but Id like a list of those you claim are Neo Liberal so Im working with your criteria.
England and Argentina are a couple that come to mind that may fit your criteria..but...
So post your list and Ill research it.
Gunner
That rifle hanging on the wall of the working-class flat or labourer's cottage is the symbol of democracy. It is our job to see that it stays there. - George Orwell
Reply to
Gunner
I haven't got the vaguest idea what a neo-liberal is! It's your concept not mine.
Clancy put that statement in the mouth of his fictional US president. Obviously he considered the US to be a liberal democracy.
Are there no others?
## Young men dream of what might be, old men of what might have been.
Reply to
John Ings
Then if you are butt ignorant..why are you arguing?
Hardly my concept. If you are unfamiliar with the differences between Classical Liberalism and Neo Liberalism..I suggest you use google and increase your skill set. So far..you appear pretty stupid on subjects you are arguing about.
Really? Care to post a cite? Your interpretion about something you have confessed to be ignorant on is not counted.
Other what?
Gunner
That rifle hanging on the wall of the working-class flat or labourer's cottage is the symbol of democracy. It is our job to see that it stays there. - George Orwell
Reply to
Gunner
I'm not! I'm asking!
Wouildn't a list of examples be easier? I mean I thought I knew what a liberal is but you assure me it's now something different, so surely you must be able to point to some examples of this new form if it truly exists.
What, the page and line from the novel?
Liberal democracies?
## Knock firmly but softly. I like soft firm knockers.
Reply to
John Ings
Then stop making claims and ask. Be specific and know what you are asking for. Damn!
Ok..since ignorance is bliss and you appear to be a very happy man..Ill give you basics
New liberalism (also called modern liberalism or social liberalism) is a stance in political economy that argues for extensive state regulation and partial intervention in a capitalist economy. It is named in opposition to classical liberalism, and serves as an intellectual foundation for political liberalism, liberal democracy, and social democracy.
In Europe and the United States, in the end of the 19th century and the early 20th century, governments started to intervene significantly in the economy; this trend gathered momentum after World War I, and became dominant after the Great Depression of the 1930s. People like L.T. Hobhouse theorized why and how a government could intervene in the economy without the country becoming a socialist planned economy. They took the name of new liberals, to signify how they endorsed the evolving tradition of political liberalism, while rejecting the radical element from the classical liberal school of economic thought as well as the then-revolutionary elements from the socialist school.
New liberals believe that while individual freedom should be guaranteed, classical free-market liberalism had failed to protect the basic rights of citizens, and that responsible government is the solution to many social and societal problems. New liberals think of their stance as a pragmatic midway between socialism and classical liberalism.
Classical liberalism is a political ideology that originated in the 19th century. It is often seen as being the typical ideology of the industrial revolution and the subsequent capitalist system. Ideas such as freedom of speech, freedom of religion, and freedom of thought were first proposed by classical liberal thinkers, before they were also adopted by thinkers of other ideologies. The influence of classical liberalism has been so widespread that the majority of Western countries are considered to be liberal democracies.
The key characteristics of classical liberalism:
The importance of the individual Freedom Reason Justice Toleration and diversity [edit] Thinkers As the industrial revolution began in the United Kingdom, so did the first conceptions of liberalism. The first liberal philosopher was John Locke (1632-1704) who defended religious freedom in his important work A Letter Concerning Toleration (1689). However, he would not extend his views on religious freedom to Catholics.
Locke was responsible for the idea of "natural rights" which he saw as "life, liberty and property". Natural Rights theory was the forerunner of the modern conception of human rights. To Locke, property was a more compelling natural right than the right to participate in collective decision-making: he would not endorse democracy in government, as he feared that the "tyranny of the majority" would seek to deny people their rights to property. Nevertheless, the idea of natural rights played a key role in providing the ideological justification for the (at least moderately democratizing) American revolution and French revolution.
The main economist of classical liberalism was the Scotsman Adam Smith (1723-1790), who broadly advocated the doctrine of "laissez-faire" or "let [it] act" -- minimal government or command intervention in the function of the economy. Adam Smith developed a theory of motivation that tried to reconcile human self-interestedness with unregulated social order (mainly done in The Theory of Moral Sentiments (1759)). His most famous work, The Wealth of Nations (1776), tried to explain how an unregulated market would naturally regulate itself via the "invisible hand" of aggregated individual decisions.
American thinkers were also heavily influenced by liberal ideas. Both the third and fourth Presidents of the United States, Thomas Jefferson (1743-1826) and James Madison (1751-1836), put the Liberal movement's ideas into practice. Not only did they set up a liberal democracy, they also furthered liberal ideology's influence on the American system of government, by advocating a system of checks and balances, federal states' rights and a bicameral legislature (two-chambered, like the US Congress' Senate and House of Representatives.) The seminal exposition of Liberal values in American govenrment is The Federalist (1788), more commonly known as The Federalist Papers, by Madison, Alexander Hamilton, and John Jay.
[edit] Classical liberalism today John Stuart Mill (J.S. Mill, 1806-1873) was influential in developing modern concepts of classical liberalism. He opposed collectivist tendencies but also placed emphasis on quality of life for the individual. He also had sympathy for female suffrage and (later in life) co-operatives -- positions which were, however, made somewhat unclear by his support of the British Raj, or British colonialism in India.
Two groups, libertarians and neo-liberals (such as Margaret Thatcher), also claim the ideological inheritance of classical liberalism. These political philosophies are notable for focusing on the notion of "freedom" as it applies to the market. Some argue that this conflicts with classical liberal ideas and that even Adam Smith recognised the limitations of the free market as a sole means of social organization.
Classical liberalism in its various interpretations remains one of the most pervasive ideologies in the world to this day.
An Excellent paper on the subject:
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No..that what your interpetation is..is what Clancy was actually saying.
Sure, there are a number that fall loosely under that title.
What about them?
Gunner
That rifle hanging on the wall of the working-class flat or labourer's cottage is the symbol of democracy. It is our job to see that it stays there. - George Orwell
Reply to
Gunner
I thought I was quite clear. I asked if this statement is true:
"There was another lesson of history: Liberal democracies don't make war on one another"
Now I thought I knew what a liberal democracy was, and that England for instance has been one frequently since Gladstone remarked that: "Liberalism is trust of the people tempered by prudence; Conservatism is distrust of the people tempered by fear."
But you told me in no uncertain terms that all that had been changed, and that modern liberalism is different.
So surely you can point to some examples?
[...]
OK, now with that as a criteria, can you not list some nations governed by those principles?
I wasn't interpreting anything. Here's the context, from Clancy's "The Cardinal of the Kremlin", a 1988 novel. His fictional president of the United States is thinking to himself:
"The momentum of events could bring the Soviet Union out of the Dark Ages and into the 20th century era of political thought. It might take a generation, perhaps two, but what if the country did start to evolve into something approaching a liberal state? There was another lesson of history: Liberal democracies don't make war on one another."
Can you think of any that have made war in one another? Was that not what I specifically asked for? Damn!
## It was the first Rotarian that called John the Baptist "Jack"
Reply to
John Ings
Ugh.
Neo-liberalism is a term that comes from economics, which has been appropriated in various inconsistent, short-lived ways for political purposes. It means the opposite of what many people think it means. It's the no-regulation, low-taxation, laissez-faire economic policy espoused by F.A. Hayek, the Austrian School, and the Chicago School of Economics. In the U.S., it's often called "The Washington Consensus" by economics writers.
The liberal political theory Gunner probably is thinking of is sometimes called New Liberalism, but not neo-liberalism, except by people who haven't followed the history of it.
If you want a fair explanation, Wikipedia has one of its meandering definitions here:
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I always hesitate to use them for an authority because they try to compromise and incorporate too many caveats and back-alleys in their definitions, but this one at least covers the territory.
The short history is that it's a purified version of Neo-Classical economics as developed by the Chicago School. It also has a curious history that's tied to Salvador Allende. The political policies that stem from neo-liberal economic thought are those that the big-business side of U.S. conservatism promotes today.
Ed Huntress
Reply to
Ed Huntress
Sure they do. Look at England and Argentina as examples. Faulklands..remember?
You are evidently unaware that the meanings of Conservative and Liberal have been reversed since Gladstones time. Classical Liberalism is what the term Conservative NOW means..and classical Conservatism is what Libera NOW means. The reversal occured at the early part of the 20th century and late 19th. Wierd how that happened..but it did. Shrug. Which gives one pause when reading the works of those writers before that period. Ive run afoul of that more than once. Ed has pointed it out to me at least once as well..
Quite different.
See above.
Sure.
Given he was talking about the reactionary USSR..any democratic state would fall under the term Liberal Democracy. Why not drop him an email and ask him what he meant?
Sure, England and Argentina come to immediate mind. Israel and Egypt another. Several times. Ecuador-Peru yet another. 1941 and 1995
Ill work on a list. Some of the South American countries swing back and forth between military dictatorships and democracies so when Chili Peru battle it out..Ill have to verify who was in charge.
But as even the England and Argentina example shows..its not an absolute statement of truth.
Gunner
That rifle hanging on the wall of the working-class flat or labourer's cottage is the symbol of democracy. It is our job to see that it stays there. - George Orwell
Reply to
Gunner
You are absolutely correct Ed. My mistake. When I start thinking about all the various Liberalisms that are manifest..I get a bit confused. Chuckle
Gunner
That rifle hanging on the wall of the working-class flat or labourer's cottage is the symbol of democracy. It is our job to see that it stays there. - George Orwell
Reply to
Gunner
You consider Argentina a democracy? Never mind the liberal part, their government was a military hunta at the time wasn't it? Engaging in the 'dissapearing' of dissidents, censoring the press etc.
That's what you've been saying, so I left you the option of using your definition of liberal.
England and Argentina are both liberal democracies then?
So far I've only got two.
I suspected it wasn't, but then it would seem Clancy's idea of a liberal democracy isn't yours. His may be closer to mine.
## Lots of folks confuse bad management with destiny.
Reply to
John Ings

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