OT: Ballot challenge truce

---------------- Thanks for the public service, and for giving the NG the straight skinny. Considering the total number of votes cast, it looks pretty clean, even if very close.

Not a chance that Frankin will ever take the high road. Franken at best is low brow humor.

Wes

Why do you say that, Wes?

If you're not following this recount closely, you may be interested in a few facts. First, Karl is in a county with really odd results. Franken has challenged 51 votes in Meeker County, according to Minnesota Dept. of State statistics for 11/26, while Coleman has challenged only 7. Something may be strange here because these are the same numbers the state was reporting after the first day of the recount (yes, I have been following them every day). Has neither siade challenged any more ballots since the first day? Maybe Karl could clear that up for us.

But statewide, Coleman has challenged 2448, while Franken has challenged only 2292; Coleman has challenged 156 more than Franken. And, even on day one of the recount, the spread was only 12 challenges. Coleman's side was in the same challenge race from the get-go, statewide.

In other words, although Karl has the impression that Franken jumped out ahead on the challenges and Coleman followed, that's not what the statewide statistics have shown. It may be that Karl's impression is influenced by the fact that his own county has had more challenges from Franken, right from the start. Or it may be that he's a Republican and is talking to other Republicans. In Meeker County, the vote is so heavily skewed toward Coleman that it looks like most of the people one could talk to are Republicans. d8-)

After Coleman's campaign claimed that there were Franken ballots in an election official's car, and then couldn't come up with the name of the person who reported that when they took it to court (even though the election officials showed they had been locked in a safe all night, as they were supposed to be -- the court threw out Coleman's claim), it's been clear that Coleman's campaign is trying to give the impression that Franken is using underhanded gimmicks, while it's really Coleman whose statements and claims have been more questionable. Several editorials in newspapers, both in MN and around the country, have said the same thing. The state *required* a recount in this election, but Coleman tried to give the impression that Franken had called for it himself, in an attempt to "steal" the vote. And, even though it's a state requirement, Coleman has tried to stop the recount at least three times. Shades of the Bushistas in Florida, ca. 2000.

If you want to see the current statistics for yourself, BTW, they're available in a comma-delimited format that drops right into Excel. I've run a lot of totals and percentages from them and that's what the above figures are based upon:

Both sides have shown signs of exhaustion and frustration; Coleman has even had to retract at least one of his claims about what Franken is doing. I wouldn't criticize him too much for that, given the circumstances, but the evidence is that both sides are pushing as hard as they can to win this thing. Coleman is leading and he'll probably win unless the rejected absentee ballots are counted and they happen to turn the tide. If you look at the state's recount instructions you'll see enough evidence to suggest that either the Canvassing Board or the courts will probably revisit them before this is over. Minnesota makes a point in much of its official documentation that an effort must be made to determine the intent of the voters, and re-checking the rejects sounds like it's in order even though there is no provision for it in the present regulations:

You have no taste for comedy. d8-)

-- Ed Huntress

I've listened to him too many times including when he had a show on Air America. Some of my opinion is based on those subtle clues one picks up on someone after a period of time observing them. Sorta trusting the gut.

That would be interesting. Are the ballots all optical scan or was another method being used?

Meeker sounds like a good place to live ;)

From data linked in your message.

Before recount Coleman Frankin

5697 3870

After recount

5649 3865

Coleman gained, Frankin dropped. I'd have thought it more likely that both would have gained some proportional amount.

I notice you say Coleman's campaign. These are heated things and if someone gets a story of ballots in a car during a contested contest there is going to be some screaming.

What has Coleman said personally?

I don't know how they would expect to halt the recount, that pdf you linked seems very clear on when a recount is mandatory.

One thing that was a bit worrying is that a ballot is to be rejected if there is an identifying mark on it. In the example they showed initials but someone could use stray marks, folds, minor tears to say the ballot had an identifying mark. One of those we know what they meant sort of things that leaves room for a bit of mischief.

Playing with them.

Outside of my earlier comment, it seemed like a well put together document.

I wonder what Jon Stewart is going to do the next 4 years. Maybe retire and let Colbert take over?

Wes

Jeez, do you listen to Bellyacher Radio? I can't stand it, right or left. I do sometimes find the MSNBC TV pundits entertaining, but I couldn't take a steady dose of it.

Their basic method is optical scan. You'd have to look into it to see if every precinct uses it.

97.3% white and two years older than the national average. It's a little piece of Republican heaven. d8-)

They both dropped. Remember, they're recounting the same number of votes they had going in. You'd have to see what they do with the ballots the machines rejected. It's in the instructions somewhere. And then there are the challenged votes, which temporarily reduce the numbers.

Someone might want to check it out before screaming to avoid having egg on one's face.

I don't think he said anything. He left it to Fritz Knaak, his Senior Counsel.

First Coleman said that Franken should concede and "spare the people of Minnesota the expense and delay." He later retracted that. Then Knaak tried to halt all recounts because of the ballots-in-the-car incident. Then there was another legal challenge, which I forget. I don't think that one made it to court like the second one did.

I guess that the Canvassing Board is going to have to deal with that headache.

Ya' got me. I like to watch their shows maybe, oh, three times/year. I don't follow them.

-- Ed Huntress

those we know

------------------ Don't confuse the process with the candidates. Process looks pretty clean, considering its not done every day and the number of votes cast. As close as this race is, who ever loses will claim fraud.

It seems appropriate that any election involving Frankin should end in farce....

Were these two really the best and brightest that would run for office?

Hey, we're talking about Minnesota. They once had a pro wrestler for governor. To them, politics is just a night out at the comedy club, and they have a great sense of humor. d8-)

-- Ed Huntress

My niece attended a debate with Norm Colman, Al Franken and Dean Barkley and her impression was Barkley was the clear winner. This was held at the U of M Duluth where she is attending school. She said Colman and Franken danced around the questions and several times couldn't answer the question. Barkley gave clear answers in her opinion. I think what the Independent candidate lacked was money. He seems to have good sense. Steve

Get back to me when either you or George have a chair at Harvard Ed. Franken's politics may or may not appeal to an individual but he's a pretty smart, well educated guy. His attention to his responsibilities as a father, and a son for that matter, are worth noting. Odd that the rising Dems are living the family values mantra that Repubs have claimed for so long.

JC

Our county had the honor of being first with this frivolous ballot challenge thing. After that, it was a race to the bottom. Last I heard, Coleman had done a few more than Frankin. The total number is around 4000 - 5000.

Optical scan equipment, all new sence 2000. This equipment is EXCELLENT. When all is said and done, they are finding about 1 vote per 5000 that machine couldn't count that a human can. May be enough to swing the race but I doubt it. ...

I do know a couple democrats. Nice people, just confused . BUT, I voted independant in this race. My opinion of Coleman is pretty low. I also voted democrat for congressman.

I tell folks that after moving all over the country I chose Dassel. Best place in the world, IMHO. My only complaint is temperature in January and February. So, I go to Ed's old hometown for two months.

...

I'd be shocked if the rejected absentee ballots aren't eventually reviewed. But I would also be very surprised if it made a difference. Bottom line, Minnesotans can be proud of the quality and fairness of the election system. But, not the candidates.

Karl

I don't mean my comments about Franken seriously. I really don't know enough about him, post-SNL, to have an opinion.

But I used to do some business in Minneapolis and surrounding areas (it's a center for high-end toolmaking) and, as I told my friends there at the time, after they elected Jesse (The Body), I'd never again be able to take Minnesota seriously. Just hearing the state's name brings a chuckle.

This is the state that gave us, by birth or residence, Eugene McCarthy, Fritz Mondale, Hubert Humphrey, the Pillsbury Doughboy, The Body, and Al Franken. Let's face it, those Minnesotans have a unique outlook on life.

-- Ed Huntress

But did the challenges stop in Meeker County after the first day? That's what the state statistics suggest. Those numbers -- 51 challeneges by Franken and 7 by Coleman -- look like the same numbers they posted on day one. Too bad I didn't save the spreadsheets day-by-day, but I recall those being the same as the numbers posted on 11/26.

You have had some interesting candidates over the years; d8-) The optical-scan system looks like the way to go, however, and, as Wes said, it looks like your recount procedure is a sensible one.

-- Ed Huntress

I know some Hollywood types that have met Franken. All of them claim to be Democrats, but they do tend to work with their hands...so hardly capital L liberals.

Universally, they claim that Franken is a dolt with the intelligence of a garden slug. But he does follow scripts well and has a narrow band of intellegence with humor (such as his is) and peronal attack. Shrug

Ive listened to him on Airhead America (still failed despite the best efforts of rich Libs and a childrens charity fund) and yes..he is a dolt.

Shrug

Gunner

"They couldn't hit an elephant at this dist..." Maj. Gen. John Sedgewick, killed by a sniper in 1864 at the battle of Spotsylvania

Dam nit. I misread the numbers. Thanks for catching and mentioning it. Good thing cut and paste worked. That is very interesting, republican area larger proportional loss.

Oh, Challenged by Franken 51, challenged by Coleman 7. (sure hope I got that right ;) )

Wonder how it looks in dem strong holds? I'll have to play with the sheet again later.

Ah, another act in the play.

You aren't wasting valuable life time one them. You are most likely pursuing far more entertaining diversions.

Wes

I didn't see any disparity like the one in Meeker County, but I didn't look very hard for that. I was looking at the statewide stats.

Yeah. Most of my TV time is spent in useful pursuits, like watching Yankees games. d8-)

That's probably 50% or more of my total TV time over the course of a year. This past season was very painful to watch.

(It *was* useful when I used to coach Little League, Senior League, and American Legion League pitchers. Now it's just an escape.)

-- Ed Huntress