OT---Blending waste and heating oil for use in a boiler

On Sun, 24 Sep 2006 01:40:02 GMT, Bruce L. Bergman


Hi Bruce,
You don't have to preach to the choir. I retired from an independent Motorola shop :)
It was a few years ago already and the same song was being sung then. Except the replacement radio you needed to buy was the Saber. Have you ever taken a Saber apart? I was always amazed that they ever worked, let alone dependably ;-)
--
Leon Fisk
Grand Rapids MI/Zone 5b
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Leon Fisk wrote:

I repaired my share of Twin-V and Pre-Prog. Anyone that thinks it has nothing to do with metal working has never seen either of these beasts.
--
Service to my country? Been there, Done that, and I've got my DD214 to
prove it.
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On Tue, 26 Sep 2006 03:25:19 GMT, "Michael A. Terrell"

My last Motorola is a VHF MoTran Dual-Receiver Deck - 10 points if you know who those were custom built for... It's out in the shed, and still works AFAIK.
I'm keeping it if I ever want to put it in my 61 Corvair. The vintage matches (it looked stupid with a 'modern' Wilson 16-channel VHF hung under the cold-cathode Delco AM radio) and the power consumption is low enough for it to work.
That one was an upgrade from a MoTrac tube hybrid, and before that one of their really old one-piece jobbies - had a simple control head with the switches on the side, but the deck had plugs where the knobs could be mounted on the face... Solid Cast Iron.
Used to be you could count on 20 to 30 years of service, and then someone did a Repeater Conversion and stuck it on top of a mountain for another 20 - Now they're obsolete or dead and not repairable inside of 5.
Okay, this side OT offshoot of the main OT has gone far enough. Now what was the question again?... ;-P
--<< Bruce >>--
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"Bruce L. Bergman" wrote:

My Motorola experience went from Twin V straight to Micor with only a few random radios in between. The state of Ohio had some dual receive GE VHF radios, but I don't remember any from Motorola. I sold and serviced Pace/Landmaster starting with their first synthesized radios, and a friend sold used Motorola. I would stop by and help him whenever he got behind on repairs.
--
Service to my country? Been there, Done that, and I've got my DD214 to
prove it.
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Let me preface this by saying that I don't have any first hand experience, but I think it would work just fine. The home heating oil is just diesel oil, and since you can in a pinch run motor oil in a diesel engine it will probably burn in your boiler.
I would suggest a test with a small tank with your 50/50 premix and a valve to cut out your regular oil feed and cut in the premix. Start your boiler on the regular fuel and once it is up to temp cut in the premix.
You will probably get a little more smoke, but if you can live with that you should be fine.
--

__
Roger Shoaf

Important factors in selecting a mate:
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experience,
will
valve
boiler
.....OR YOUR NEIGHBORHOOD......

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valve
you
Roger,
Thanks for your kind remarks.
While I was waiting for the boss while she was shopping at the local Wal Mart, a fellow parked near me. He was driving a small import pickup, diesel powered. I asked him about his mileage, and his reply was shocking. He informed me that he had been running the truck on a blend of highway fuel and transmission oil, which he was getting from a transmission shop owned by a friend. Great mileage, and no reports of any problems.
Thus far, my experiencing in messing with this stuff indicates it's ultra important that it gets filtered. Once it's gone through the filter, which takes considerable time, it will readily go through succeeding filters quite rapidly. I can see that without pre-filtering, it would be a huge mistake to add the stuff to a tank.
If you read my comments to Howard, you will already know that smoke isn't an issue. The boiler, which I have operated for several years, does not smoke, nor has it ever. Could be that it would with a higher amount of oil, but, if so, I'll adjust the ratio until it doesn't. All I'm trying to do is stretch my heating dollars a little. At this point, the amount of used oil I have at my disposal is limited.
Harold
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diesel
There are a lot of folks that get waste fry oil from restaurants and after a simple refining process (to remove the glycerin) burn the stuff in their diesel cars, and some run straight veggie oil using petro diesel only when they start up and when they shut down.
Good luck,
--
Roger Shoaf

If knowledge is power, and power corrupts, what does this say about the
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snip---

a
Yeah, that's a great project for later, Roger, when I'm finished with my building project. I could use the oil for both of my Dodge trucks, as well as for heating. So much work to do and so little time!
Harold
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Harold,
Using waste oil diluted into your heating oil isn't really a good idea.
1. Residential oil burners are designed to operate a certain viscosity fuel. Obviously waste oil doesnt meet the spec., and will come in varying viscosity depending on the oil received. Therefore your burner will need constant adjustment.
2. Burning waste oil will produce very acidic byproducts (sulphur), which will condense in your chimney as sulphuric acid and destroy the masonry, and eat away the galvanized smokepipe. Plan on installing a stainless liner system.
3. Burning waste oil will cause smoke and soot, you can't see it by looking in the chamber, you need test equipment. If your using even a small mixture I would bet your pulling a #2 or #3 smoke. (Determined by using a smoke tester). Plan on having your boiler vacummed on a regular basis. Another reason is that the nozzle spray pattern (and specific to your boiler/combustion chamber)is designed to be optimal at a certain viscosity and pressure.
4. The waste oil contains heavy sediments that will settle in the bottom of your oil tank making it a gooey sludge pot. In the 275 gallon waste oil tank in my shop the bottom 1/2 is solid crap from the past 10 years of use. Even the waste oil guy won't remove it. Factor in the cost of regular tank cleanings.
5. Plan on changing your filter, pump strainer, and nozzle every few weeks. Plan on early relacement of the fuel pump. Plan on cleaning the cad-cell sensor every month.
6. Plan on becoming a oil burner service tech to become proficient at adjusting the burner settings.
If you think tinkering with the burner at 6am to get the heat & hot water on is worth it,,,,, but I think you'll find a wood pellet stove easier if savings is your goal.
Tony

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Given the proper blend, any adjustment could be made once, then the boiler operated for a season. I have a huge oil tank, so I could establish a stable blend. Probably won't be 50/50, if for no other reason, I don't have a source that large.

and
That's not an issue. The heating oil I've used since day one is high sulfur, but I have a stainless stack and clean it personally. There are no signs of corrosion anywhere in the system after six years of operation, including the firebox of the boiler.

looking
mixture
Yeah, I've already been through that, and with straight heating oil. I paid well over $100 to have a local "expert" set the boiler, using his killer expensive instruments. Net result? A sooted boiler in less than three months. I now set by eye----and have established a reasonable level of performance. Do I think my eye is better than proper instruments? Hardly----but I'm getting far better results than I did by paying an unreasonable fee. Fact is, any oil will burn cleanly if provided a proper balance of air----and thus far I am getting, if anything, less in the way of deposits, not more. I attribute that to a slightly hotter flame with a different profile. Probably a result of the slightly thicker (more viscous) oil mix.

I have it set such that I now can run a season without shutting down for cleanup. I can live with a once-a-year cleanup if it saves me a few hundred dollars. As I mentioned, I am retired, living on a modest fixed income, and do the work myself.
>Another

viscosity
That, indeed, is the purpose for my inquiry. So far, my limited experimenting has yielded excellent results. Could be I'll have to stick to just a little supplement, but indications are that that may not be the case.

of
tank
Even
I'm not sure you and I are doing the same thing. For one, I am filtering the oil well----not running it through chicken wire to remove butts. If I had oil delivered that had been collected from unknown sources, I'd likely agree with you, but in this case I personally see every drop that goes into the tank. After filtration, which goes fairly slow (unattended), it will run through successive filtrations quickly. The spooge seems to be removed totally. The oil is then filtered again through the system when it's used. I've not had to replace a filter aside from routine maintenance.

weeks.
While I can understand your comments, so far that is not the case. I'll keep a close watch on the boiler when I start running it for signs of any trouble, but at this point I've never had to replace a nozzle, ever. Fact is, the only work I've done on the boiler is to clean the combustion chamber. The pump should be even happier than it was pumping straight heating oil-----after all---I'm pumping lubricating oil, and the average viscosity is changed very little.

I can live with that. I'm a hands on kind of guy and do almost everything myself, anyway. I've learned that hiring people to do things can be a mistake. Setting the boiler when it was put in service is a great example.

on
Pellet stoves don't solve my problem. I heat hydronically and do not have any intentions of abandoning what was a very expensive heating system that pleases me no end. My first choice was a pellet boiler that used to be made commercially, but was abandoned maybe 8 years ago, likely because of limited demand. I had originally planned to buy one. There were no other sources for such a boiler at that time, and my space is now limited to the boiler in use. I built the room around the boiler, in other words. Converting to a different fuel type is now not an option unless it took less space. A pellet boiler would take more space, based on the size of the one I wanted to buy originally..
Our water is heated by electricity. Unlike most folks, we have cheap power here. We pay 4.4 cents/kwh, and we're expecting a 5% decrease in power costs in the near future, so it's not all that expensive. I wouldn't be pleased to have to run the boiler strictly for hot water for the kitchen and bathroom. It sits idle for about three months each year.

Thanks for your comments, Tony.
Harold
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varying
need
boiler
have
which
masonry,
no
paid
three
proper
of
fixed
stick
bottom
If I

likely
into
will
removed
cad-cell
Fact
everything
example.
water
if
have
that
be
other
the
less
one
power
and
Tony:
"A person changed against his will, is of the same opinion still..."
As you can see above, some people are simply incapable of accepting reasonably presented, rational counterpoints to their thinking.
Their minds are made up, and God himself could not change them.
They ask for advice, then when it is freely given, they refute it and reject it.
Unfortunately - especially for the innocents around them who might suffer consequences from their decisions - these people must be allowed to go forth and fail.....fail in much the same way several others have pointed out that they WILL fail.
They will then become somewhat muted and humbled by the experience, but they will never, NEVER admit they are/were wrong in their thinking - no matter what it has cost them or their neighbors.
Just the fact that he emphatically states that he has NEVER replaced the burner's nozzle gives you an interesting insight into his "money over maintenance" approach to life.
Gotta' believe THAT nozzle is performing "as new" with its originally designed spray pattern shape and angle, eh?.....
......especially once he starts pumping the grit-infested waste oil - essentially, thinned out, ultra-fine, valve-grinding compound - through the nozzle and close-tolerance pump.
Where does he think that black color comes from in waste oil....Graphite?
No, it is ultra-fine particles of carbon....carbon that WILL wear close-tolerance oil burner components, NOT lubricate them as he erroneously believes.
It is carbon that he will never pre-filter away - unless, of course, he spends a few thousand dollars for a sophisticated filtration system, but that would surely offset his "savings"....wouldn't it?
I burn pure, clean No. 2 fuel oil that is run through the standard fuel oil filter in my shop furnace, and I'm not too cheap to install a new $1.50 nozzle, and a new $2.00 filter each year as inexpensive, preventive maintenance
My oil burner pump is well-lubricated with clean, correct viscosity fuel oil - the very oil that the pump was designed and engineered to work with.
I think whatever is saved by running waste oil through a fuel oil system will be more-than-offset by the negatives in equipment maintenance, repairs, and replacement.......
.......and, there is always the possibility - given the right neighbors - for EPA fines for burning unapproved, potentially carcinogen-bearing waste oils in a residential neighborhood.
For his neighbors' sake, let's hope he doesn't get a "deal" on free, PCB-containing, used transformer oil from his local power company.........
Remember, it is often the frugal man who pays the most.....
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* wrote:

What is the expected life of a burner nozzle? I would expect that a nozzle ought to last for a number of years, but don't really know.
My understanding is that one can filter used lubricating oil from one container to another container lower than the first using a rope as a wick so the oil first goes up by capillary action and then down to the second container. And that filtering this way will remove the carbon. I have not tried this. Has anyone done it? And does it work.
I do know for a fact that regardless of the neighbors, you will not get a EPA fine for burning waste oil generated on site. One of the local garages has a waste oil furnace and heats their shop using waste oil from their service business. Burning waste oil generated on site is approved by the EPA.
The garage has a heated tank for the waste oil. If you try using a heated tank, be sure to turn the heat off during the summer. The garage did not do this a couple of years ago, and it was a problem.
Dan
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snipped-for-privacy@krl.org wrote in article

the
but
-
waste
Even with clean, filtered number 2 fuel oil, the bronze filter built into the nozzle eventually clogs.....

You're talking about a commercial operation.
"Generated on site" refers to a commercial shop of some sort.
Some states have specifically banned the installation and use of waste oil burners in residential neighborhoods.

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Which? and when?
jk
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* wrote:

Generated on site means that you are not buying waste oil to burn. It does not mean commercial operation. Maybe some states have banned burning waste oil in residential neighborhoods, but I really doubt it. It would be a law that is almost impossible to enforce as there is no more smoke and soot generated by burning waste oil than is generated by your oil furnace.
Dan
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snip----

Chuckle!
Yep!
You know that, Dan, and I know that, but your work is cut out for you trying to convince the illustrious Mr. * of the fact.
Harold
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snipped-for-privacy@krl.org wrote in article

The term does not just refer to the *purchase* of waste oil. It means that the waste oil has to be the direct result of operations occuring at the specific property.
What homeowner has the capacity to "generate" several hundred gallons of waste oil "on-site"?
If you serve as a repository for the neighborhood, the waste oil has not been generated "on-site." It was generated elsewhere, and transported to your site.

While some have specifically stated that waste oil furnaces cannot be used in residential areas, rules requiring waste oil to be generated "on-site" effectively serve the same purpose.
How many times can a DIY change his oil, and in how many cars?

It also has to do with storage and potential for spills......not just smoke.
All it would take is for a local inspector to see a new tank in place - or worse, a number of 55 gallon drums alongside a building.
OTOH, if you go down to city ahll and pulla permit for an oil storage tank, you're opening another can of worms.
How would you like a neighbor a few doors up from you to dump his waste oil behind the garage - directly over the aquifer that serves your artesian well?
Imagine if he spilled a 55 gallon drum of waste oil!
Historically, waste oil has not been handled, stored, or disposed of properly - especially by the DIY.
What DIY is going to set up a commercial storage tank for the little waste oil he generates each year?
What DIY is set up to take initial action should a spill occur?
The OP talks about blending his waste oil in a 1000 gallon tank, but how is he storing the waste oil prior to blending it?
Does he have a commercially installed waste oil storage tank for the hundred gallons he currently stores?
I've given up on convincing him that he's ruining his equipment. I really couldn't care less about what it eventually costs him.
But, he has the potential of polluting the area with waste oil............
.......which is one major reason why waste oil burning is banned - directly or indirectly - in residential neighborhoods.
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Again which and when?

Well, NO "neighbor" can dump oil over the aquifer that serves an artesian well. Over the aquifer that serves a ground water well, yes, aretsian well, well its some "neighbor" that lives that far away.

As does any body with an oil furnace, waste or otherwise.

Again, .... when and where?

jk
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oil............
Most people with oil burners have their fuel needs serviced by professional. licensed distributors using approved equipment and methods of transfer - not amateurs tipping five-gallon cans into thousand-gallon tanks.

directly
Several New England states - for example.
I was told I could not buy a waste oil burner for my Massachusetts home garage by the people who SOLD THEM!!!! Lanair.....
They told me they could NOT install one of their units at a residence.
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